An interesting thought exercise for New players/GMs

[AlexanderHowl]

I am fairly generous when it comes to point values. I generally give 'average' NPCs (Age × 5) CP with 50% going towards trivial skills (Area Knowledge, Current Affairs, Games, and Hobby Skills) and 50% going towards attributes, advantages, or useful skills (academic skills, combat skills, life skills, and professional skills). I also tend to give them (Age) CP negative traits. This is in addition to the stuff for younger characters.

For example, the 'average' 50 year old will be worth 200 CP (125 CP in trivial skills, 125 CP in other positive traits, and -50 CP in negative traits). The other positive traits are primarily social (Allies, Contacts, etc.). PCs start at 250 CP, just to make them exceptional.

[bocephus]

This disagreement has diverged from two points #1 in game I wouldnt care if the peasant farmer had pretty, elaborate and very durable pants or not. It doesnt advance the story in anyway so its truly moot. Just like the only time I ask for a check to start a fire when they stop for the night is because it is in some way part of the narrative... everything is wet, they need fire to keep the wolves away, they hear a pack howling in the distance... ok tell me how you get the fire started.


#2 I didn't criticize your understanding of the game mechanics, but your application of them to my world.

Originally Posted by MrFix

On topic of your crticism of my understanding of skill. What you just described your little relative do is called DEFAULT HOUSEKEEPING ROLL. GURPS is a smart system, as such it already covers all these 'too mundane to be a skill' situations by saying that they are, in fact a skill.

The disagreement isnt in your assessment of the Game system, I dont disagree with your interpretation of what your explaining. My disagreement is with your assessment of what a Peasant is and what it meant to live in TL3 feudal society.

My child has not devoted 200 hours to helping in the kitchen or anything associated with cooking, have you really considered how long 200 hours is and how much kids "help"?. They help once in a while and here and there. I would argue that is a roll against default cooking with some bonus for familiar equipment and a non-combat environment would be the best application of the rules. I know my kids and at no point would I ascribe a skill point in cooking to them.

Originally Posted by MrFix

Same with sewing, a lot of peasant outfits are pretty, elaborate and functionally endurant, as they have to wear them for a long time. Most female peasants specialize in sewing. Dare you suggest that they lack at least 1-2 points in Sewing?

Here is where you can see our disconnect best dsiplayed. I suggest that no "Peasant" in my world has more than one elaborate or pretty garment for anything but special days. Thus one person in the household/holding would have some skill in sewing skill but not everyone. And truly its more a reflection of access to "higher quality cloth" than skill.

I suggest that your vision of what a Peasant is differs greatly from mine, and that's where we are at cross purpose. I would say that most peasants would be rolling at some sort of default for any skill not in their specialization and not that they would have that skill just because they existed for X number of years.

GURPS has a system for dealing with that as well... you roll against the Default for not having the skill.

I guess my view of a Peasants life is significantly darker than what you visualize. So I will continue to disagree about the over application of skills to some one that I feel doesn't have them, while completely agreeing that your application of the rules works perfectly for you and is not in any conflict to the way I apply the rules.

** Edited because a different thought occurred to me. Take these examples.

A person is able to walk up to any Piano, Keyboard, or generally keyboard functioning toy and play "Mary had a Little Lamb" with 90% or better accuracy. Is that Skill?

If that same person was utterly incapable of anything else including chopsticks if only because the starting location on the keys has to be figured out. But can unerringly play Mary had a Little Lamb. Is that still a Skill?

I would argue that is not a skill its just a "trick", a bit or errata that for one reason or another stuck. I would argue that while it falls in the scope of Musical skill perhaps even specialized to Piano, it is not worthy of being assessed as a "SKILL" and as such grants no advantage what so ever to an attempt at a different tune.

I think we are just seeing a outcome and ascribing a differing level of skill.

I used to be in the SCA and I have made both "Peasant pants" and a Renaissance era Doublet. Let me tell you with modern tools, materials and access to a "Master" for guidance, my cats could probably reproduce those pants but I failed multiple times in my attempt to put that Doublet together properly. In my opinion neither of those individual scenarios would attribute to me a current Sewing skill of anything better than default. I cant say I have picked up a needle and thread for more than the odd hole mending since, and while I would confidently say I could make a pair of those pants from memory, I don't think I would attempt that Doublet again without a pressing need. Would you assess that as "SKILL" achieved or just persistent attempts at default with a time and TL modifier, and one item being far more simple to make than the other.

Yes after the Doublet I would be tempted to say I have achieved a skill point in Sewing, but that was a truly long and arduous process. The pants were not "fine garments" nor were they poorly made, they are just simple and arguably such a low tech level that anyone today should be able to do it with about 10 minutes spent looking at a youtube video. That still isn't "Skill" in my book. Also I don't agree that its a Dex skill more than an IQ skill but that's neither here nor there in this discussion.

[Aldric]

Will have to do something like this, but for a Sci-Fi setting, at least to get a feeling of what the average person looks like.

Anyway, for your Peasant issues, they'll nees points in whatever skill they use to make a living, at least to get in that 11-13 range that, when coupled with routing use, guarantee a certain margin of success.
Then there are some complementary skills, running a farm is not just a Farming roll each season.
And Dabbler can cover some more things, if you've built your own house or barn, I don't think you want it to be built at default.

Now I want to get some numbers down...

[AlexanderHowl]

Average becomes really amorphous with science fiction, especially with augmentation and genetic engineering. You could have a TL12 society that decides that it is advantageous for every human being to have ST+10, DX+4, IQ+4, and HT+4 and changes the baseline genetics to reflect that ideal (meaning that 'Human' is a 300 CP template). Or you could have a TL12 society where everyone is an upload living within the computers of SM+4 mecha (meaning that they probably start at 1,000 CP).

Of course, point values have less meaning the higher the TL, as technology gives people enormous advantages. A TL9 character can purchase a small mecha with just 100 CP of Signature Gear or Powered Combat Armor for less than 10 CP of Signature Gear. Even with those extremes, TL9+ equipment can make even 'average' humans quite effective.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by bocephus

My child has not devoted 200 hours to helping in the kitchen or anything associated with cooking, have you really considered how long 200 hours is and how much kids "help"?. They help once in a while and here and there. I would argue that is a roll against default cooking with some bonus for familiar equipment and a non-combat environment would be the best application of the rules. I know my kids and at no point would I ascribe a skill point in cooking to them.

At no point has I stated that your child has any points in Cooking skill.

I stated that your child has rolled against Housekeeping skill at default. Feel free to look up what Housekeeping does as a skill.

A person is able to walk up to any Piano, Keyboard, or generally keyboard functioning toy and play "Mary had a Little Lamb" with 90% or better accuracy. Is that Skill?

That's a skill, used at default, with bonuses for a simple melody. The same exact skill somebody would use to play a keyboard professionally. Somebody who doesn't know such simple melody would get no default roll. That's a thing, GM is free to forbid default rolls.

I would argue that is not a skill its just a "trick", a bit or errata that for one reason or another stuck. I would argue that while it falls in the scope of Musical skill perhaps even specialized to Piano, it is not worthy of being assessed as a "SKILL" and as such grants no advantage what so ever to an attempt at a different tune.

There's no such concepts in GURPS because they aren't needed. There isn't a 'trick', there's either performing a skill or performing basic body maneuver.

Complete lack of any knowledge related to skill - No Default (Repairing a TL9 blaster as TL3 Armorer)
Pedestrian understanding of skill - Default from IQ/DX (Pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger, playing a piano by executing one extremely basic melody)
Dabbler understanding of Skill - Default + Dabbler perk level (Performing high school math)
Cross-trained understanding of skill - Default from another skill or specialty (Armorer (Small Arms) trying to maintain a melee weapon)
Trained understanding of skill - 1 point invested into it.
Mastery understanding of skill - 2 and more points invested into it.

I used to be in the SCA and I have made both "Peasant pants" and a Renaissance era Doublet. Let me tell you with modern tools, materials and access to a "Master" for guidance, my cats could probably reproduce those pants but I failed multiple times in my attempt to put that Doublet together properly. In my opinion neither of those individual scenarios would attribute to me a current Sewing skill of anything better than default. I cant say I have picked up a needle and thread for more than the odd hole mending since, and while I would confidently say I could make a pair of those pants from memory, I don't think I would attempt that Doublet again without a pressing need. Would you assess that as "SKILL" achieved or just persistent attempts at default with a time and TL modifier, and one item being far more simple to make than the other.

I would call that using your Housekeeping skill (which covers odd hole mending), at penalty for hard task, at bonus for time spent.

[AlexanderHowl]

The average adult peasant woman would have likely had 4 CP in the five skills included in the Goodwife Talent (Cooking, Diagnosis, Gardening, Housekeeping, and Sewing). Girls would have likely had 1 CP in each while young women would have had 2 CP in each (older women would have likely had 8 CP in each). Grandmothers would have likely had 12+ CP in each. This is assuming on the job training.

Servant women would have probably been no more experienced than their peers, but they would have likely been better the higher status their employers. Status 1 or 2 households would have likely had one primary servant woman at IQ 11 and Goodwife 1, Status 3 or 4 at IQ 12 and Goodwife 2, Status 5 or 6 at IQ 13 and Goodwife 3, and Status 7 or 8 at IQ 14 and Goodwife 4. The secondary and tertiary servant women would likely be much less capable (reduce by one effective rank each level removed from their employer).

[ericthered]

Remember that the average human has slightly less than one testicle. In reality any given person is in the top 90% of at least one activity.

A few of things to remember about sewing. First, the majority of work that goes into making an outfit, especially an old one, is the creation of the fabric, not sewing it together. Spinning and weaving can be very time-consuming activities. Second, the making of clothing in Europe was traditionally the sphere of the wife. Low Tech Compendium 3 makes this a separate skill from sewing, and I don' doubt that sewing is going to be less common than Professional Skill (clothmaker)

The Peasant community will generally build (and daub) their own houses, grow their own crops, cook their own food, make and clean their clothes, care for their own animals, build their own furniture, make their own containers, and repair their own tools. No one is going to have all of those skills, but many peasants will have a side gig to bring in a little money. Its also worth remembering that they're making almost everything from sticks and mud.

They'll also have hobbies, such as story-telling, dancing, and various games. A number of them are likely to have some skill in brawling: local lords hardly enforced laws among peasants. I'd also characterize most peasants as hardy.

I do think you can keep the point cost under 40 and cover all of that though.

Originally Posted by whswhs

If I were doing an everyman hero, I wouldn't give him much in the way of boosted stats. I'd have everything be between 9 and 11. The most likely stat for a boost would be HT, especially in an era when "everyman" spends his day in physical labor. I'd probably make him IQ 10, DX 10, and skill-12 in his primary job skill. In a medieval setting, I'd make him Struggling and Status-1, both of which typify even a free peasant. In a lot of societies he'd be illiterate, and possibly innumerate (he'd have to count on his fingers to calculate). He wouldn't have Combat Reflexes, and he might plausibly have Reluctant Killer.

Originally Posted by pestigor

This is what I imagine when people say they want a "realistic" campaign. This usually isn't what they want when confronted with it though.

A while back I started considering the average scores for DX and HT to be 10.5, and average ST for able-bodied Men to be 11. I found I never depicted NPC's with scores of 9 unless I was making a statement (this guy is clumsy), but that 11's showed up quite frequently, so I kind of just formalized what I was doing anyways. I will change from this paradigm, but only if I have a specific reason to.

Knowing how you naturally build NPC's is probably just as useful as theorizing how to do it right. And thus the OP's suggestion is a great exercise.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by MrFix

At no point has I stated that your child has any points in Cooking skill.

I stated that your child has rolled against Housekeeping skill at default. Feel free to look up what Housekeeping does as a skill.

I think we made it to a place we can put this one to bed. You agree with me that its just a default roll and that my child has no skill points in either Cooking or Housekeeping. I could go with that, as the origin of this discussion was less about the definition of the skill in question but rather to show that it was possible to perform a simple/basic tasks without having anything more than a default level of "skill" therefore its not relevant to character points on a character sheet.

Re: my Doublet sewing, I see your logic though I would argue it falls more in line with Sewing than Housekeeping (as it is creating an article of clothing and not in the current style) but its semantics at that point, and the default attribute. I wouldn't rule that direction in my game, but I wouldn't flinch if someone else did it that way in their game.

On the subject of Housekeeping as a skill, I find it a little to catch all and open ended, and will admit in the past I have largely skipped this in favor of the individual skills it covers. There is one notable exception to this in a character that was using Housekeeping as a cover pretending to be a butler, but I cant think of any other time I have actually put points into it.

On the piano bit I just disagree. I feel ok with that because this is real. The person in question is me, and I can promise you that I would have a considerably better chance to build a piano than I would to play one. My ability with that song is just pattern recognition and simple memory like playing Simple Simon (if you know what that game is). I could play it whether I heard the tones or not. It is certainly not a music skill. I went back through the skills list and so far Im thinking more Games or Lock picking (think digital lock) something leaning against pattern recognition and not musical aptitude.


I really appreciate the dialog, and while we went around the bushes to get here I think it was worth the trip.