Astral Projection

[MikMod]

Just wondering if I have this right and how other people play it...

1/ You can appear anywhere you've been before, physically.

2/ You can blink to several places while astral as long as you've been there.

3/ After you arrive somewhere, you can see things, hear people and move about as if you were there, except you can move through all physical objects.

4/ You could spend an hour exploring a house you had stood outside, or a city where you had once stood on the docks, and you would see what is actually there right now.

5/ You would be able to astrally move (walk/fly) from places you had been, into places you had not physically been.

6/ I'm guessing you can 'fly' at MA 12 or something. Not sure what maximum range that gives you!

7/ Would you allow the deck of a ship, or the arms of a lover to be 'places' you could astrally project to? I imagine if you can 'feel' the 'place' then you can reach it?


Does that sound about right? Thanks in advance.

[Kieddicus]

Never actually used it. I am pretty sure you are correct on 1 and 3.

As for 2 you can definitely teleport to the first location but it is debatable if you can freely do it after.

The spell states you had to have visited the place while not in astral form, so you probably cannot do 4 and 5.

6 There is nothing that implies your MA is modified... So only if you already had an MA of 12.

As for RAW I'd guess no on 7, but I might allow it if I GM.

[Skarg]

1. Yes.

2. Not clear. It sort of sounds like it, but if you can teleport at will, then the later part about how combat works just like physical combat would not be very true. It'd be about winning initiative and moving second into foe's rear hexes, or teleporting away if you lost initiative. And, Astral Travel is already super-powerful, so I would rule no.

3. Yes.

4. Yes.

5. Yes, walk. I think flight would require magic unless you can naturally fly.

6. No as above.

7. No, definitely not. That would add an extra-powerful ability to this already extra-powerful spell. Places must mean fixed places, not people or ships or wagons or objects.


Because I have seen this spell used, and used to very powerful effect, and I don't much care for the type of world and gameplay that creates unless I want a game about powerful astral spying and attacks, I tend to add a number of things in my campaigns such as spells that can block and/or detect and/or trap astral travel more effectively than pentagrams, wards and mage sight, as well as astral terrain, creatures, and other risks and perils.

[Shostak]

To Skarg's comments I would add that it is absolutely fair play to populate your world with astral menaces to act as a deterrent against overuse of such a powerful spell, perhaps the Astral Asp, that easily overlooked serpent underfoot whose bite renders one unable to leave the astral plane until ...

[MikMod]

Thanks guys, I'd love to know more about the terrain and creatures that you've added. Sounds interesting. I can only think of the faerie paths from Norrel and Strange...

[Shostak]

There's always the danger of a Beyonder, Planar Assassin, or Flying Mana Leech, as can be seen here in the Book of Monsters.

[larsdangly]

I understand it is not cannon, but I prefer to interpret astral beings as occupying a plane you can freely explore and that contains beings, objects and connections to yet other planes that you would not encounter in the non-astral real world. That is, I follow a classic D&D interpretation that astral beings inhabit a plane of existence that overlaps but extends beyond the real world. I don't do this to enable any particular powerzzz, but rather because it feels more fun and interesting and open ended.

[phiwum]

Great thread. I was just about to ask about the following question in a new thread, but I came across this.

Originally Posted by MikMod

5/ You would be able to astrally move (walk/fly) from places you had been, into places you had not physically been.

Sadly, only two folks answered and they answered differently.

Originally Posted by Kieddicus

The spell states you had to have visited the place while not in astral form, so you probably cannot do 4 and 5.

Originally Posted by Skarg

5. Yes, walk. I think flight would require magic unless you can naturally fly.

I wonder if we can get some more discussion on this. I'm a bit loath to allow one to walk to previously unseen locations using Astral Projection because it would be a very, very powerful scouting ability. The Fatigue cost is significant, but one could project nearby an unseen area and see what's on the other side of the door, what's in the locked vault (including traps, if he's good at that), walk through rock looking for previously unseen secret areas, scout the entire labyrinth beforehand and so on. Since he can do this from a safe distance, the fatigue cost isn't really all that significant.

Thus, I'm leaning more towards Kiedicuss's answer than to Skarg's. But I'd like to hear from others. (An official clarification would be most welcome.)

I must confess that I was leaning towards Skarg's answer when I was considering NPC usage of Astral Projection, but once a player spoke up about gaining the spell, I somehow reconsidered. In a fairly panicky manner.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I wonder if we can get some more discussion on this. I'm a bit loath to allow one to walk to previously unseen locations using Astral Projection because it would be a very, very powerful scouting ability. The Fatigue cost is significant, but one could project nearby an unseen area and see what's on the other side of the door, what's in the locked vault (including traps, if he's good at that), walk through rock looking for previously unseen secret areas, scout the entire labyrinth beforehand and so on. Since he can do this from a safe distance, the fatigue cost isn't really all that significant.

Thus, I'm leaning more towards Kiedicuss's answer than to Skarg's. But I'd like to hear from others. (An official clarification would be most welcome.)

I must confess that I was leaning towards Skarg's answer when I was considering NPC usage of Astral Projection, but once a player spoke up about gaining the spell, I somehow reconsidered. In a fairly panicky manner.

Assumption 2/ (You can blink to several places while astral as long as you've been there) is, I think, correct, since the wording of the spell is "can observe events in other places [my emphasis] for one hour" not "can observe events in an other place".

3/ (After you arrive somewhere, you can see things, hear people and move about as if you were there, except you can move through all physical objects.) Yes and no. If there were a desk in a room you had visited physically, you could move through its hexes as though it wasnt' there. However, if there were a previously unexplored room beyond a closed door, you could not move through that door as though it wasn't there. Read on for more detail.

My take on Assumption 4 (You could spend an hour exploring a house you had stood outside, or a city where you had once stood on the docks, and you would see what is actually there right now.) is both Yes and No. So long as there is no physical barrier to a previously unexplored area, I don't see why the astral traveller would not be able to move at normal speed to that area. Thus, the astral visitor could walk into a previously unexplored mausoleum that happens to be open, but not one whose door is closed. Similarly, one could walk from the neighborhood you lived in to a part of town you'd never been to, but you could not go inside any building which did not have an unobstructed opening. If you wanted to return to those newly explored areas on a second astral trip, you'd have to start at the beginning, since you had never been to them physically.

Assumption 5 is not substantially different from no. 4, except that you can only fly if you have that ability or spell.

7/ (Would you allow the deck of a ship, or the arms of a lover to be 'places' you could astrally project to?) I agree with Kiedicus and Skarg that "place" is meant to signify a geographic location.

[phiwum]

Interesting way to carve things, Shostak.

So, if you'd seen a cave mouth previously, though you'd never been inside, you could visit it again and enter the cave. Unless, say, someone had laid branches across the mouth of the cave to cover the entrance. Or perhaps a flimsy curtain?

But it's a bit ad hoc, I think, to say that I could move through a desk (thereby occupying space that I hadn't seen, though there was matter blocking the space), but I can't move through a door into previously unseen space. Or could I not pause at the desk and move my astral head inside to have a look around?

I can see how this gives the projector more mobility and options while still limiting scouting somewhat. I'm having trouble coming up with a good rationale for these restrictions though.

Consider the following: I visit a house that I've never entered (nor seen the interior). The door stands open, but a magical Shadow is placed over the hex so I still can't see through the Shadow and into the house. Can I pass through the Shadow? If so, how is it different than passing through the closed door?