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07-20-2006, 12:29 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Flushing, Michigan
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Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
Okay, here is a question...
It sounds like Connoisseur is mostly a social/merchant skill rather than an academic skill. It allows you to assess value, impress people at parties with trivia that makes you sound educated (whether you are or not), know if a certain style is "in" or "out." It does not give you a truly genuinely detailed understanding of the disciplines connected to those objects. For that, an academic skill or an appropriate interdisciplinary expert skill is involved. An example... Connoisseur (Visual Arts) lets you look at a painting and say whether it is valuable, and if the "art crowd" will think it is hot, lets you recall some interesting facts about the artist, etc. Expert (Visual Arts) gives you an academic understanding of art history, theories of art, psychological effects of art, perhaps some knowledge of related topics like great museums of the world and art restoration, etc. Does this make sense? I'm asking because one of my players may decide to play a Jonny Depp/Ninth Gate rare book dealer type character. I'm figuring he might have... Literature = You have actually read lots of these books and know what they mean, how they use symbolism, how genres have developed over time, etc., but you may prefer a Penguin Classic over a signed first edition because the notes and the critical introduction will be more useful to students Connoisseur (Literature) = You can predict which books will be "hot," which contemporary authors are darlings of the smart set, which editions of a book are valuable and how much they're worth, etc. <-- it seems to me this is almost two separate skills, though...would a book dealer know if a new book is going to be a critical hit? Professional Skill (Bookbinder) = You can bind and repair books Hidden Lore (Rare Books) = Unlike Connoisseur, this skill is not connected to the financial and social value of a book, but all the esoteric, perhaps quirky details about these books that have been ignored, forgotten, or maybe even suppressed. (Of course, making these things public might change the value of a book and if you have both skills you might have an idea of what that change would be...) And I'm guessing that if you have these skills, you do not need Expert (Rare Books). In fact, I'm not sure what such a skill would cover that isn't already covered by Connoisseur, Literature, and Hidden Lore. Am I missing anything? Any thoughts on all this? Thanks. Mark |
07-20-2006, 01:54 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
I mostly agree with your breakdown but I do think Connoiseur should also give you some understanding of whatever history is involved, if only because rarity and historical significance play a rather important role in determining the value of antique pieces of art. For instance the appropriate Connoiseur skills should let you determine the dynasty of a precious vase or the historical style of a painting, and supply enough context to determine how much of them survive to this day as well as how to distinguish the real thing from later period imitations.
The things you put as an example in Hidden Lore (Rare Books) I would just see as high skill in Literature. Few enough people have such high skill anyway. IMO to justify Hidden Lore there would have to be some important secret information hidden throughout rare books and the skill would have to help locate and/or decode such books, or at least give some impression of who hid what where. |
07-20-2006, 02:57 PM | #3 | |
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Austin
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
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Paul Chapman |
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07-20-2006, 02:54 PM | #4 | |||
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Austin
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
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Also, for his character, I'd add in Detect Lies and Merchant, for the haggling portion of his job.
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Paul Chapman |
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07-21-2006, 03:35 AM | #5 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: U.K.
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
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Both could have a default from Literature, though I'd tend to give Connoisseur (Rare Books) a rather bad default because it's only tangentially related. Connoisseur (Literature) would get a default from Writing - knowing how to perform an art includes knowing what's good work, by definition; Connoisseur (Rare Books) could have a default from Pro Skill (Bookbinding) for some purposes. Connoisseur (Literature) is handy if you're running a branch of Borders. Connoisseur (Rare Books) is required if you work in the books division of an auction house. But frankly, this character might do better just to crank Literature skill up to a gross level, chuck a few points at Pro Skill (Bookbinding), and run everything else off the defaults if necessary. Simpler, and saves a lot of nitpicking.
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-- Phil Masters My Home Page. My Self-Publications: On Warehouse 23 and On DriveThruRPG. |
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07-21-2006, 08:48 AM | #6 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
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That is, I think there is a difference between knowing what's a good book and knowing what will sell to readers. For comparison, Merchant (Roleplaying Games) will tell you to stock up on d20 products, with a sideline in White Wolf. Connoisseur (Roleplaying Games) will make you aware of Diana: Warrior Princess or Nobilis. |
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07-21-2006, 11:06 AM | #7 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: U.K.
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
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I prefer to think that Merchant is about the art of buying and selling whatever you have and knowing how to get a basic idea of its value in advance. Dealers and brokers in specialised fields (fine wines, comic books, exotic slaves, orchids) also need specialised skills to know whereof they speak. Most people at the sharp end of the business will have those skills, though the theory behind recruiting high-level management from outside an industry is that high-level management has and needs only high levels in Administration and Merchant, and doesn't really need the specialist skills. (Scott Adams has built a career out of knowing where that thinking can lead, but it may not always be BS.) But a PC being defined as a dealer in a specialised field will usually need more than Merchant to work in play.
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-- Phil Masters My Home Page. My Self-Publications: On Warehouse 23 and On DriveThruRPG. |
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07-21-2006, 11:10 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
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07-21-2006, 01:00 PM | #9 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
I agree very strongly with Phil, above, regarding unspecialized merchant skill. In the modern context that skill ought to cover procedural things for running a business: legal issues related to taxes and employment law, salesmanship, working with lenders, marketing and merchandising, et cetera.
Specialized merchant skill, IMO, would give you special insight into those topics, for example how best to merchandise your d20 books, where your best avenues for marketing your products are (i.e. TV ads for RPGs don't deliver bang for the buck like magazine ads or flyers on campus) -- details of selling your specialty, not necessarily insight into the quality of a particular item. Anyway, that's how I see it. I was thinking about this topic just a couple of days ago as I considered a character for Banestorm. The character in question is an expert rider and the son of a wealthy horse merchant, and ended up with Riding 17-, Animal Handling (Horses) 12-, Connoisseur (Horses) 11-, and Merchant (Horses) 10-. So, here are some questions about what skills we would use for various in-game actions -- perhaps a fun exercise to use to investigate this question: 1) What do horses usually sell for in Tredroy? 2) What do horses usually sell for amongst the plains riders of Al-Haz? 3) This merchant has five horses for sale, and I want the fastest. Which one is it? 4) I am selling a horse to a Pasha from al-Haz. Which might he pay extra for? 5) Has this horse been well-trained, or is it still somewhat wild? 6) This is a fast, well-trained horse. What is it worth? My answers: 1-2) Merchant skill. I'd give a negative modifier if the character lacked Area Knowledge for the appropriate area. 3) An IQ-based Riding roll. (I suspect that's a controversial judgment.) 4) Connoisseur (horses), perhaps, and it would require Cultural Knowledge of the Muslim states. For example, perhaps the aesthetics of al-Haz mean that a Pasha would pay more for a white Arabian with an untrimmed mane. 5) Animal Handling. 6) Merchant. I don't think that the merchant skill alone covers discerning that the horse is fast or well-trained, but knowing that, it would be merchant skill to adjust the usual price in the marketplace for the added value of the horse's talent or training. 6) My two cents. As always, reasonable people may disagree.
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I didn't realize who I was until I stopped being who I wasn't. Formerly known as Bookman- forum name changed 1/3/2018. |
07-21-2006, 12:42 PM | #10 | ||
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Skill question...Expert vs. Connoisseur
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I'll grant that only Connoisseur and Current Affairs come out and say "you get +1," but that ought to establish a precedent for a skilled GM. My short list of applicable skills would be Area Knowledge, Connoisseur, Current Affairs, Expert Skill, Games, Hidden Lore (definitely suits The Ninth Gate!), Hobby Skill, Market Analysis, and/or Professional Skill, depending on what you're selling. It would be fairly easy to rack up +2 or +3 to Merchant this way, and not impossible to get +4 or higher. A wine merchant selling claret might see bonuses for most or all of Area Knowledge (Bordeaux), Connoisseur (Wine), Current Affairs (Bordeaux), Expert Skill (Oenology), and Professional Skill (Vintner), if he had the skills and made the die rolls.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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