Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-11-2019, 03:20 PM   #11
Humabout
 
Humabout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Look, Ma! I made my Computer Use check!

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...11&postcount=7
__________________
Buy My Stuff!

Free Stuff:
Dungeon Action!
Totem Spirits

My Blog: Above the Flatline.
Humabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 03:25 PM   #12
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
Look, Ma! I made my Computer Use check!

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...11&postcount=7
Interesting, but that compares different IT types, rather than IT:DR to HP or other traits.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 06:52 PM   #13
Humabout
 
Humabout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
... but that compares different IT types, rather than IT:DR to HP or other traits.
I didn't claim it did otherwise:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
PK had a good explaination a long while back about why ITDR is priced as it is. Maybe someone can link to it. Either way, it was based on the price of Vulnerability, which it is the opposite of.
[Edit] And actually he specifically explains how it is priced to line up with another trait: Vulnerability.
__________________
Buy My Stuff!

Free Stuff:
Dungeon Action!
Totem Spirits

My Blog: Above the Flatline.
Humabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 07:24 PM   #14
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
[Edit] And actually he specifically explains how it is priced to line up with another trait: Vulnerability.
I get what you're saying, the reasoning just feels off. Vulnerability is bad because it multiples the life checks (and potential for death) rather quickly. IT:DR is good because if you spend enough, you can take a LAWs rocket to the head and still have positive HP.

It looked more like IT:Unliving wouldn't be worth it as IT:DR/3 for three times the cost. As it is, there's not a mad rush to take any of the damaging reducing IT versions in any of my games.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 07:42 PM   #15
Humabout
 
Humabout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I get what you're saying, the reasoning just feels off. Vulnerability is bad because it multiples the life checks (and potential for death) rather quickly. IT:DR is good because if you spend enough, you can take a LAWs rocket to the head and still have positive HP.

It looked more like IT:Unliving wouldn't be worth it as IT:DR/3 for three times the cost. As it is, there's not a mad rush to take any of the damaging reducing IT versions in any of my games.
If it doesn't sit well with you, I'd say email PK and ask him about it. He and Kromm are amazingly receptive to such things.
__________________
Buy My Stuff!

Free Stuff:
Dungeon Action!
Totem Spirits

My Blog: Above the Flatline.
Humabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 08:32 PM   #16
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

I would say that IT(DR) is reasonably fairly priced vs things like enhanced dodge -- which people also mostly don't take. GURPS advantages are sort of split into two categories that are somewhat balanced within the category, but one category (containing things like attributes and combat reflexes) is vastly better than the other.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 09:16 PM   #17
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I would say that IT(DR) is reasonably fairly priced vs things like enhanced dodge -- which people also mostly don't take. GURPS advantages are sort of split into two categories that are somewhat balanced within the category, but one category (containing things like attributes and combat reflexes) is vastly better than the other.
I wouldn't say that enhanced dodge and IT:DR is very well balanced against each other. Dodge does a good job of keeping you positive and in the fight. IT:DR, even at its best, lets attacks whittle on you. If you're going to take traumatic damage and you couldn't dodge you're better getting Hard to Kill since healing will be an issue anyway (if you have 3 weeks to heal, you can likely spend 6) and it's unlikely a low level of IT:DR is going to entirely prevent life or consciousness checks.

3 levels of enhanced dodge is less than the lowest level of IT:DR. Even with a baseline human (speed 5, dodge 8, kinda of a "worse case scenario") that takes him from 25% dodge to over 50%. More likely it will take a move 6 PC from 9 -> 12, which under half to a 75% chance of success. You can further bolster that with AoD or Feverish (for 1 fatigue) if you're worried about a given attack, taking it to about a 90% chance of success. Each of those completely avoids the attack regardless if it's a paperclip being throw at you or a laser that will cut you in half.

With IT:DR/2, you always take at least half. Since you round up, you'll often take just over half. You don't have an easy or built-in way to augment it.

Going up to IT:DR/3, you could have bought Enhanced Dodge +5, which brings even move 5 to a dodge 13 (~84%).

Going up to IT:DR/5, you could have Enhanced Dodge +8. That's a base dodge 16 (~98% to avoid damage). That's better than the movie Spider-Man did dodging and likely approaching the comic version.

Conversely, even with a fairly good HP (HP12?) with IT:DR/5 will take 4 damage per hit from an assault rifle. Against a .50, HP12 would be negative after one hit even against just the torso.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 09:21 PM   #18
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
3 levels of enhanced dodge is less than the lowest level of IT:DR. Even with a baseline human (speed 5, dodge 8, kinda of a "worse case scenario") that takes him from 25% dodge to over 50%.
It roughly halves the frequency of failing dodges -- i.e. it makes you twice as tough, just like IT(DR) 2, except dodge is generally easier to bypass than IT(DR).
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 09:39 PM   #19
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It roughly halves the frequency of failing dodges -- i.e. it makes you twice as tough, just like IT(DR) 2,
That's only true in very, very unusual circumstances such as where the character is built inefficiently and the player also doesn't know how to play the game. Otherwise, you run into the more usual case where you're dodging 75%-90% of all attacks vs dodging 40%-60% and reducing half the damage.

Quote:
except dodge is generally easier to bypass than IT(DR).
The misconception is that you need to bypass IT:DR. You can just do enough damage that it never mattered at all. That's something you really can't do vs dodge. Besides, I've found its easier to boost dodge (both in building and play) than to synergize with IT:DR.

Edit: also getting back to the original point, with KYOS in play I'd be reluctant to allow the higher levels. A progressive cost progression seemed like a good way to encourage the lower levels more and discourage the higher levels entirely. Using /2 = 30. /3 = 60. /5 = 120. /10 = 270 rather than /2 = 50, /3 = 75, and /5 = 125, /10 = 150 is a bit of a break at the first few but effectively caps it around /10.

Last edited by naloth; 01-11-2019 at 09:44 PM.
naloth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 09:51 PM   #20
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: IT:DR pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That's only true in very, very unusual circumstances such as where the character is built inefficiently and the player also doesn't know how to play the game. Otherwise, you run into the more usual case where you're dodging 75%-90% of all attacks vs dodging 40%-60% and reducing half the damage.
In high tech situations, like your MG examples, people use autofire and it means the difference between being hit six times and only being hit three times.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.