Safely Approaching Pole Weapons

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by RobW

By this interpretation, the pole weapon will never get the +2 bonus, as discussed above.

You do know intent when everyone flips their combat action card...

[xane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

1. There is no "free attack". The only "free attack" is in regards to attempted HTH initiation on a defender's roll of 6.

2. It would be meaningless to require a literal "attack" by the enemy of a polearm user to get the defensive bonuses, because the polearm attack happens before the foe has to pick an action anyway. i.e. The figure wanting to avoid a polearm defensive charge bonus could declare his option was going to be any non-attack action (e.g. change weapons, defend, disbelieve, change position) just in order to negate the polearm effect, and then when his turn to act comes, pick some other action (i.e. attack) because you can always change your option up until you actually act on it, which happens later in the turn after pole weapon charge attacks. (You could add a house rule to prevent that, but it would be a house rule.)

3. What do you mean about pikes?

1. By "free attack" I mean if a potential attack does not actually attack when moving to engage on that turn, then the polearm user can attack anyway, so they get a minor advantage of a first attack.

2. I agree this is a literal interpretation of the rules, but by the same rule a Dodge option (c) or Defend option (k) could never be used against a higher adjDX enemy, at some point a figure has to commit their action before their turn as many options depend on it, in the same way a higher adjDX figure going first will have to know what the target is doing, and this will apply to a polearm user to confirm if the enemy intends to attack or not.

3. See ITL p132

[Lord Twig]

Originally Posted by RobW

By this interpretation, the pole weapon will never get the +2 bonus, as discussed above.

How so? If the attacker takes option B (Charge Attack) and moves adjacent to the pole arm user, then the pole arm user gets his +2 DX bonus and extra 1d damage. If the attacker takes option A (Move) or C (Dodge) then the pole arm user doesn't get the bonus but can still attack while his opponent cannot. And he can't just change to B because that would no longer be a valid option. Seems pretty simple.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

"A charge attack is defined as an attack in which the attacker moves from a non-adjacent hex to a hex adjacent to his target." That is the full sentence, and it is very clear. If you do not attack, you are not a charge attacker.

As for changing your action when your turn comes up I would say this falls into the same realm as moving and defending. You can't move and defend then, after everyone has attacked you with 4 dice, decide you weren't defending after all and now you are going to attack. So likewise if you close on a pole arm user and avoid his charging bonus and can't later decide to attack after all. That action is no longer a valid choice.

As I wrote above, the "attack" you are wanting to take literally does not exist until after pole weapon charge attacks are resolved.

What you're suggesting is a possible way to play it, but it would be a house rule.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

How so? If the attacker takes option B (Charge Attack) and moves adjacent to the pole arm user, then the pole arm user gets his +2 DX bonus and extra 1d damage. If the attacker takes option A (Move) or C (Dodge) then the pole arm user doesn't get the bonus but can still attack while his opponent cannot. And he can't just change to B because that would no longer be a valid option. Seems pretty simple.

Because options are not binding and can be freely changed depending on how far you've moved (at a minimum). So the attacker (the person engaging the pole weapon) never has to commit to attacking at the time of movement.

For example, the attacker chooses Option A, moves adjacent to the pole arm. The pole weapon attacks but without +2 bonus. Now the attacker decides to change their option to charge attack, which is perfectly legal.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by xane

1. By "free attack" I mean if a potential attack does not actually attack when moving to engage on that turn, then the polearm user can attack anyway, so they get a minor advantage of a first attack.

2. I agree this is a literal interpretation of the rules, but by the same rule a Dodge option (c) or Defend option (k) could never be used against a higher adjDX enemy, at some point a figure has to commit their action before their turn as many options depend on it, in the same way a higher adjDX figure going first will have to know what the target is doing, and this will apply to a polearm user to confirm if the enemy intends to attack or not.

3. See ITL p132

1. Oh, I see, you mean if you play that a non-attack option by a target invalidates defensive pole weapon bonuses, and they actually don't attack on their adjDX, then (considering a 1-on-1 situation) the pole weapon user gets an unanswered attack.


2. You're right that Dodge and Defend need to be able to be used before adjDX, and can be. But I think it's an unintended interpretation that "anything but attack" is such an action, and that it negates polearm defensive charge bonuses, and that "attack" is an action you have to pre-declare (but that doesn't happen then) if you are moving up to a pole-weapon user or else you can't take it later, unless you add house rules to that effect.

You are the first person in years of me playing TFT, and of many more years of me participating in online discussions of TFT, that I have seen suggest this idea. It may be an idea you or others might like, but I really don't think it's the intent of the rules.


3. ITL 132 does describe a special mechanic for attacking as soon as a foe enters into one of its hexes of effect, but it seems to me that's needed because the pike is so long it can stop figures three hexes away. It seems to me that an ordinary polearm is the same sort of thing but shorter, and works very similarly but doesn't need that sort of rule because Front hexes and doing pole weapon charge-attacks first provides essentially the same effect at range 1.

ITL 132 also seems to me to support the idea that defensive pole weapon bonuses apply based on movement when it says: "Thus, the foe will almost always be charge-attacking – either against the pikeman or someone else – and the pike will do 3d+1 damage if it hits." If it were possible to trivially avoid the (originally 4d+2) pole weapon charge damage by taking Defend while moving up, I think Steve would have mentioned what a common and effective life-saving technique that would be. I also notice that the bonus applies to people moving into those distant hexes by figures charging someone else, which also suggests to me it's about the movement and not the future attack option which could be changed to anything else later because it hasn't happened yet.

[MikMod]

So if we have a halberd user facing a sword user, the different ways they can close to engagement are:

1) Halberd stands still, sword advances as slowly as possible, 1 hex per turn. At distance 2, the halberd gets a jab attack, the sword user can defend. Next turn the sword closes to attack range and the halberd gets first attack, no bonuses. Sword can defend or attack.

2) Halberd stands still, sword advances as slowly as possible, 1 hex per turn. At 3 hex range the halberd charges to be adjacent, gets first attack and +1 d damage. Sword could defend or attack.

3) Halberd stands still, sword runs up to them moving at least 3 hexes, halberd 'receives charge', gets +2 dx, first attack and +1d damage. The sword user probably defends, but might attack.

Thereafter they fight as normal? (With sword users getting +1 dx for defend-and-look-for-opening if you play that and they defended)

[xane]

Whilst the rules imply that figures act in adjDX order, as when they select an action, as long as the movement portion does not violate the action, they can choose any they like, changing right up the point where they choose.

However, in the case of Dodge and Defend the target must choose ahead when a higher adjDX attacker strikes, in effect the higher adjDX figure is forcing the lower adjDX figure to choose before their turn to act comes. This is the advantage that the higher adjDX figure has, as well as attacking first.

The same rules apply to polearm users, if they commit to attack, and take advantage of the first strike doing so, they force their target to choose their action, what is slightly different is they can do this against a higher adjDX figure without a polearm.

I don't think any of this violates the rules of when a figure actually chooses their action, the "time to act" for a figure who chooses to Dodge or Defend is when they are attacked, not when their turn comes in the adjDX order, this would not work any other way and the same principal can be applied to the polearm rules.

[xane]

Originally Posted by MikMod

1) ... Next turn the sword closes to attack range and the halberd gets first attack, no bonuses. Sword can defend or attack.

The halberd gets full bonuses, first strike, +1d and +2 DX because they did not move, the sword is a charge attack because they moved one hex.

Originally Posted by MikMod

3) Halberd stands still, sword runs up to them moving at least 3 hexes, halberd 'receives charge', gets +2 dx, first attack and +1d damage. The sword user probably defends, but might attack.

The three hex requirement only applies to a polearm attack to get the +1d bonus damage, it makes no difference for a non-polearm. The argument here is whether the halberd gets bonuses if the sword does something other than attack.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by xane

The halberd gets full bonuses, first strike, +1d and +2 DX because they did not move, the sword is a charge attack because they moved one hex.

Erm, I don't see how moving as slowly as humanly possible (1 hex) could ever be interpreted as a 'charge' attack!?

The three hex requirement only applies to a polearm attack to get the +1d bonus damage, it makes no difference for a non-polearm. The argument here is whether the halberd gets bonuses if the sword does something other than attack.

The three hex rule, to my mind, indicates the amount of movement required in order for you to be considered 'charging' as opposed to simply stepping.

Consider a spear user charging a halberd. The spear would have to move 3 hexes to qualify for a charge attack, they couldn't move 1 hex and get the charge attack bonus, so clearly, for the additional 'high-impact' bonus, somebody needs to be moving - and more than one hex! Otherwise you end up in a situation where the spear moves one, cannot get a charge bonus, but the halberd DOES get a charge bonus - and that makes no sense at all.

The argument about avoiding the halberd is silly, if you moved three hexes (in my book) and you end next to a halberd, then the halberd can 'receive charge' if they haven't moved (+2 dx, auto first attack, +1d damage), or get auto first and +1d damage if they have moved. Imho.

Doesn't this seem to give the most sensible results?