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Old 11-22-2011, 06:58 PM   #1
Gigermann
 
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Default [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

I got all excited about the "Deadly Spring" article—then it came time to make use of it, and I'm completely stumped. It comes down to this:

I need a TL3 crossbow for some ST10 average-Joe mooks. In Basic Set, I grab the TL3 crossbow at ST10, and move on—done. There's only one sample Medieval-type crossbow in the article (and that one is Min ST 22), which is the wrong TL anyway, so I can't just "downgrade" it.

Where do you even start? A quick internet search will bring in some basic information about crossbows, in-general, but nowhere near the specifics required by the article/spreadsheet (unless my search-fu has completely failed me)—and it would be a massive pain to scratch-build every bow/crossbow encountered in a typical Medieval/Fantasy game. Ideally, I would reverse-engineer the ones from the Basic Set, but there's not nearly enough specific information to make use of the article/spreadsheet. Are there some basic assumptions one could use to define the Basic weapons? Even just to get "close?" At the very least, it would probably be sufficient to just have a modifier to apply to damage/range/Acc to make the Basic weapons more compatible (esp. for the Realistic damage).

If I don't get some help, I'm probably going to have to drop the whole thing—and I really hate to.

Last edited by Gigermann; 11-22-2011 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
I need a TL3 crossbow for some ST10 average-Joe mooks. In Basic Set, I grab the TL3 crossbow at ST10, and move on—done.
Odds are that any crossbow used for warfare will not be anywhere near the ST of the users. Crossbows that you can cock by hand were toys or, at most, nifty game hen hunting tools.

So a ST 10 user might be using a very high ST crossbow.

On the other hand, I haven't yet bought the Pyramid in question, so I can't speak to the specific design system.

Just out of interest, though, can you give me some specifics? What kind of TL3 culture is it? Is it TL3 Dark Ages Europe or TL3 100-Year-War in terms of the society and stuff? More TL3 Arabian Nights? Something else?

And who are the mooks? Professional soldiers in an organised military, mercenaries guarding a caravan, something else?

What kind of crossbow you want depends on the job you mean to do with it and a lot of cultural, technological and economic factors.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
If I don't get some help, I'm probably going to have to drop the whole thing—and I really hate to.
Code:
	Bow Stats	
TL6 or less	Draw Weight	750
Crossbow/Footbow	MinST	22
	Draw Length	8
Realistic	Damage	1d+0 (1) imp
Crossbow	Acc	3
	-1/die dmg Range	194
	1/2D Range	228
	Max Range	228
	Weight	7.6/0.17
	Bulk	-8
	Cost (Bow/Arrow)	$974/$3.6
Here's a sample crossbow.

I opened up the Excel sheet (you DO have the sheet, right?) and first selected the cells in column B. TL6 or less, Realistic, Crossbow/Footbow, and Crossbow.

Then I fairly arbitrarily decided on a 750-lb draw weight (reasonable for crossbows of the time) with a 36" span. I used a recurve yew-sinew construction with a target draw length of 8" (crossbows often had very, very short draw lengths). 100% of the bow is working.

I made the riser/support material Oak and 36" long. Only one string loop; it's not a compound bow.

I initially used a 5:1 width to thickness ratio, and a 0.9" limb thickness gave me the required draw length of 8".

I then went to the arrow design page, and chose a 16" arrow, made of oak, of good quality. The program told me what my diameter should be; I entered something just larger (0.61"), and opted for a heavy war head. Using realistic damage scales, you'll want the AP option, but I didn't use it just for fun.

Go back to the first sheet and make sure the box in G48 has the "Design" selected, so it uses the right weight.

Oh, I used 0.07% for allowed crossbow support deflection (K28) and chose a crossbow support width of twice the arrow's diameter: about 1.2".

that gave me the stats above.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
On the other hand, I haven't yet bought the Pyramid in question, so I can't speak to the specific design system.
This is the fully worked out (over-worked, perhaps) system that was born of our initial go-arounds on the Low Tech playtest.

I had a VERY simple set of equations back then. And then I decided I wanted "any bow, any material" and my wordcount ballooned from 2,500 to 11,000.

Good news is that Pyramid 3/33 comes with the spreadsheet I built to work with the article. Ken Peters, in his review, made the comment that without the sheet, the system is unusable; with it, it's both usable and fun. I agree on both counts. :-)
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Here's a sample crossbow.
The problem isn't how to use the spreadsheet—I more-or-less worked that out, after a little tinkering. The problem is what to do with it in the first place.

For a typical European Medieval crossbow—where do I even start? What's the low end on ST? High end? What's the average? What length of bow to use? What's "normal" for material? Stuff like that. Ultimately, what do I have to put in to arrive at something resembling what's in the Basic Set (adjusted for "realism" of course)?

And that's really the crux of it—I would just use what's in BS, but the damage/range/etc is not going to be compatible, and I don't know how to "downgrade"
it properly, so it fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Just out of interest, though, can you give me some specifics?
Post-Norman, "crusades" era, European

Last edited by Gigermann; 11-22-2011 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

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Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
For a typical European Medieval crossbow—where do I even start?
I started here: http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval...oss_l_v_c.html

It would seem crossbows used in battle were 750-1500 lbs, and the big ones tended to be TL4 (or TL3 using "Fine" materials, which is effectively TL4 steel) style stuff with steel limbs.

Dimensions seem to vary between 24-48" limbs, with 2-3' being preferred, obviously, if you expect to pick it up and move it.

Draw lengths tended to be quite short: as low as 2" and maybe up to about 12".

I've seen varying weights for bolts, but they were usually quite heavy.

I don't want to say "make stuff up," but once you have (or assume) poundage, draw length, basic thoughts as to the arrow (I tend to use oak shafts, or ironwood if available, with as big and nasty an armor piercing tip I can mount), and construction, the rest is a matter of tinkering.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

In retrospect, I should probably have worded my initial question differently. Don't focus too much on the crossbow—that was just the example that kicked this off for me. But let me give some background:

I decided to use "The Deadly Spring" because I like realism, and crunch. In the game I'm currently running, the "archer" Player made his bow using TDS, and that was fine. Then, it occurred to me that the Basic Set crossbows the mooks were using were no longer compatible, and the one appropriate sample in TDS wasn't close enough to what I was using. I started to build one in the spreadsheet, and realized I didn't have nearly enough information.

The problem: Take any BS bow/crossbow and make it compatible with TDS (or quickly generate a TDS version).

The Longbow is easy—we have a sample to work from (but how exactly do you downgrade it properly?). We could stick with the crossbow, or something else—how about the Composite Bow? We have stats in BS; damage, Acc, range, based on ST—but composition, length, shape, etc? What kind of arrows are BS arrows? It doesn't have to be exact, really—just "close enough."
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

Focusing on converting the BS weapons is probably not ideal. Why not focus on getting a basic crossbow, rather than an adaptation of the Basic Set's unrealistic crossbow?
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Focusing on converting the BS weapons is probably not ideal. Why not focus on getting a basic crossbow, rather than an adaptation of the Basic Set's unrealistic crossbow?
Note that the "cinematic" damage of the crossbow I posted is 1d+2, or thr+4 for a ST 10 bow using Basic.

I think that IS the ST 10 "bare bones" crossbow.

It requires a mechanical aid to span, but that's OK. :-)
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:15 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Note that the "cinematic" damage of the crossbow I posted is 1d+2, or thr+4 for a ST 10 bow using Basic.

I think that IS the ST 10 "bare bones" crossbow.

It requires a mechanical aid to span, but that's OK. :-)
The mud in my brain is starting to settle a bit, now, and I've been doing a little research.

The non-crossbows aren't so far off, WRT "cinematic" damage—1 or 2 points—so, if I dumped "realistic" damage, they'd probably work, with a slightly different treatment (that is, purchasing a fixed ST). Crossbows are a different matter, as discussed in the "Damage" TDS sidebar.

The difference between the sample and the ST10 BS Crossbow is the time it takes to span it, definitely—and that's going to significantly reduce the lifespan of a ST10 mook under TDS. But then, maybe there were some presumptions being made for BS—that is, a Min ST10 BS crossbow might actually have a heavier draw than ST10; FREX, if a stirrup were "included," it could actually be ST12—but that's not really spelled out in the BS descriptions.
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