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Old 10-14-2019, 01:40 PM   #21
b-dog
 
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Default Re: [Spoilers] Improving “I Smell a Rat” with Better Motivated PCs

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Except it isn't. ISaR immediately puts the PCs into close combat when most newbs won't have CC weapons or decent skills, it relies on knowledge of the tropes of the genre to even continue beyond the basement, and several of the combats past the basement need keen group coordination to defeat (or the wisdom to avoid).

The whole adventure is a great first adventure for old hands, but if you've got newbs as either PCs or the GM, its a blood bath. And with both?

It's a terrible adventure for newbs.
That’s why D&D was better with levels than starting at 250 points with GURPS. New players really don’t know how to use a 250 point character effectively and they are thrown into adventures where they face tough monsters. If they were to start out with 100 to 125 point PCs then the new players can slowly learn how to use their PCs powers and abilities on weak opposition like orcs and goblins and after they advance to 250 point PCs the player know how to work all the bells and whistles their PCs have. Plus they will have earned their gear too so they know how to use it effectively.
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Spoilers] Improving “I Smell a Rat” with Better Motivated PCs

The problem with starting low points with rapid early escalation is that there's a lot of variation in how build types scale with more points spent. A 250 point fighter mostly just has different numbers from a 125 point fighter. A 250 point mage is dramatically different.
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:51 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Spoilers] Improving “I Smell a Rat” with Better Motivated PCs

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That’s why D&D was better with levels than starting at 250 points with GURPS.
No it isn't. D&D is garbage.

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New players really don’t know how to use a 250 point character effectively and they are thrown into adventures where they face tough monsters. If they were to start out with 100 to 125 point PCs then the new players can slowly learn how to use their PCs powers and abilities on weak opposition like orcs and goblins and after they advance to 250 point PCs the player know how to work all the bells and whistles their PCs have. Plus they will have earned their gear too so they know how to use it effectively.
This is why you don't throw them at tough or tricky combats. This is why ISaR is not a 'starter' adventure, it has tough and tricky combats. Combats that experienced Players making 250 point Characters would be fine with and that experienced GMs can assess and scale on the fly, but newb GMs will TPK newb PCs with.

Kromm was right to start DF/DFRPG at 250 points. It yields capable delvers that even newbs can easily pilot through starting fights and get under their feet quickly.

Only casters really need deft guidance, but that's because of the variance of DF Wizards, the fragility DF Clerics, the uselessness of DF Druids... and the annoyance factor of DF Bards. ;)
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Spoilers] Improving “I Smell a Rat” with Better Motivated PCs

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No it isn't. D&D is garbage.
It may not be to your tastes, but any product with the history of success of D&D is doing something right (this does not mean GURPS should emulate it; the obvious response to "here's how to do D&D in GURPS" is "why shouldn't I just play D&D then?").
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:49 AM   #25
Dalin
 
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Default Re: [Spoilers] Improving “I Smell a Rat” with Better Motivated PCs

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
That’s why D&D was better with levels than starting at 250 points with GURPS.
I see where you are coming from, but there are major downsides to low-level play in D&D too. I find low-level play far too swingy. This summer, for example, a friend ran the opening encounter of Phandelver for our kids and myself. A critical success by the ambushers and a critical failure by the PCs led to an instant TPK. It was hilarious. We were alive for less than five rounds. This sort of thing was relatively common back in my AD&D days, especially if the DM was rolling out in the open.

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
This is why you don't throw them at tough or tricky combats. This is why ISaR is not a 'starter' adventure, it has tough and tricky combats. Combats that experienced Players making 250 point Characters would be fine with and that experienced GMs can assess and scale on the fly, but newb GMs will TPK newb PCs with.
I largely agree with this. I'd love to see a true starter adventure for DFRPG with some basic encounters ramping up to a more complex conflict.

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the obvious response to "here's how to do D&D in GURPS" is "why shouldn't I just play D&D then?").
A counterpoint, though, is that I've been playing GURPS D&D since 1996; I'd say that GURPS does D&D better than D&D. I've gone back to pure D&D a few times (trying out each new edition), but then I come right back to GURPS. It's more flexible than D&D. Even DFRPG, which is much more "class-based," feels far more malleable to me. I admire all of the genre possibilities with GURPS, but ultimately I just use it for good old-fashioned swords and sorcery.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:00 AM   #26
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Default Re: [Spoilers] Improving “I Smell a Rat” with Better Motivated PCs

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It may not be to your tastes, but any product with the history of success of D&D is doing something right (this does not mean GURPS should emulate it; the obvious response to "here's how to do D&D in GURPS" is "why shouldn't I just play D&D then?").
One thing it did right was being the first on the market.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:13 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Spoilers] Improving “I Smell a Rat” with Better Motivated PCs

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One thing it did right was being the first on the market.
Being first to market won't save a bad product.
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