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Old 05-15-2019, 12:04 AM   #11
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
-20% sounds about right, thanks for the reference.
I wrote up self-only afflictions as -50%. Honestly, it might be -80% because you can only use that attack one one person: yourself. And a single target is canonically worth -80% per Power-Ups 8: Limitations (p. 5). And if you go that route it's really just easier to outright buy the trait to begin with and slap the Sorcery modifier on it.


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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
I agree that would be more straightforward, but it fails to meet some expectations like the Conjure Sword + Fireball I mentioned above.
I'd probably call Conjure anything an appropriately modified innate attack, it's not a buff.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

If you want to be able to mantain a spell and cast other spells while you mantain the first one, you have to pay full cost for your most expensive spell.
Each time you do that, you extend your "spell ready pile" by one (three spells at the same time for the two most expensive spells at full cost, for example).
If you don't do that, you will not be able to cast spells while flying with a "self-flight" sorcery spell.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:26 AM   #13
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Honestly, it might be -80% because you can only use that attack one one person: yourself.
In this case, it's not an attack -- Flight, as I recall. A one-person-only attack is quite limited, I agree. A one-person-only (self) ability is far less so. Most abilities are self-only, after all: Flight in its normal form, Regeneration, Combat Reflexes, Night Vision, etc. You have to spend a lot to get Affects Others (but not +80%). Most abilities are pretty selfish, and most players want their spotlight time more than a way to give someone else the spotlight.

My first reaction was "no discount; it's just a complicated way to buy the ability directly". I certainly wouldn't give away all self-only abilities at -80% (which does stack with the 1/5 AA multiplier, so together they're a 25x force multiplier). But I think the Limitation worth something, because if you did buy Affliction (Flight), you could give the members of your party the ability to fly -- which is going to be quite useful from time to time. Giving that up is going to show up in games and restrict the player's getting maximum use out of the ability.

Advantage Afflictions are expensive. (In the case of flight, it's 10 CP +400%, so 50 CP, more than Flight at 40 CP, so the -20% would make them come out the same*.) So the question really boils down to "why would you buy a self-only Affliction rather than the straight ability"? (That's a different question from "what would the Limitation value be?")

I can't think of any good reasons off the top of my head. Munchkinly reasons are easy to come by -- exploiting loopholes with Cumulative and/or Permanent, or just doing the math both on every ability and taking whichever one happened to be cheaper, setting metaphysics irrelevant. And there are good reasons to prefer simpler builds over more complicated and esoteric ones.

--
* I usually lean toward Multiplicative Modifiers when it comes to games where the powers are central. The rules throw around a lot of +100%, +150%, +300% modifiers, but there's really no way to counterbalance those with the additive method, due to the lack of similar large values on the Disad side. The point costs just explode with AM. You can give away more points, but that just leads to the non-powered characters becoming OP because the scale tilts. (And if the your philosophy were "I don't care about points", why would you care about the method for calculating those irrelevant values?)
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:34 AM   #14
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
In this case, it's not an attack -- Flight, as I recall. A one-person-only attack is quite limited, I agree. A one-person-only (self) ability is far less so. Most abilities are self-only, after all: Flight in its normal form, Regeneration, Combat Reflexes, Night Vision, etc. You have to spend a lot to get Affects Others (but not +80%). Most abilities are pretty selfish, and most players want their spotlight time more than a way to give someone else the spotlight.
I disagree. Accessibility isn't just for attacks - it's been used for a myriad number of traits. One I can think of off the top of my head is using One Person Only for Telesend in DF 5. That said, Accessibility is fully within the GM's control and they should be careful about its use.


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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
My first reaction was "no discount; it's just a complicated way to buy the ability directly". I certainly wouldn't give away all self-only abilities at -80% (which does stack with the 1/5 AA multiplier, so together they're a 25x force multiplier). But I think the Limitation worth something, because if you did buy Affliction (Flight), you could give the members of your party the ability to fly -- which is going to be quite useful from time to time. Giving that up is going to show up in games and restrict the player's getting maximum use out of the ability.
My first reaction is "Just buy the damn ability" and ignore Affliction.


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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Advantage Afflictions are expensive. (In the case of flight, it's 10 CP +400%, so 50 CP, more than Flight at 40 CP, so the -20% would make them come out the same*.) So the question really boils down to "why would you buy a self-only Affliction rather than the straight ability"? (That's a different question from "what would the Limitation value be?")
But only in that one case, in others the math is likely to change.

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I can't think of any good reasons off the top of my head. Munchkinly reasons are easy to come by -- exploiting loopholes with Cumulative and/or Permanent, or just doing the math both on every ability and taking whichever one happened to be cheaper, setting metaphysics irrelevant. And there are good reasons to prefer simpler builds over more complicated and esoteric ones.
Cumulative is its own can of worms.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:56 AM   #15
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
And if you go that route it's really just easier to outright buy the trait to begin with and slap the Sorcery modifier on it.

I'd probably call Conjure anything an appropriately modified innate attack, it's not a buff.
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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
My first reaction is "Just buy the damn ability" and ignore Affliction.
If I outright buy the ability, either Flight or Innate Attack, as part of Sorcery, it goes against the problem that only one spell can be used/active at any given time. So a flying mage would have to fall to throw a fireball, or a conjuration mage would need to make a concentration maneuver between attacks with magical swords and fireballs.
If it's allowed to buy the ability separated from Sorcerous Empowerment, it would be way better but it could have some problem down the road when the mage learns how to buff allies with such ability. A mage with flight learning affliction (flight) would in effect be paying twice for the ability to fly himself (unless there's "others only" limitation on affliction, but I doubt such limation would be worth as much as 10%).

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Originally Posted by PL Madeira View Post
If you want to be able to mantain a spell and cast other spells while you mantain the first one, you have to pay full cost for your most expensive spell.
Each time you do that, you extend your "spell ready pile" by one (three spells at the same time for the two most expensive spells at full cost, for example).
If you don't do that, you will not be able to cast spells while flying with a "self-flight" sorcery spell.
Another poster said the same thing, is it from some book? As I said to him, I feel this is too expensive. Imagine a mage with Sorcerous Empowerment 9 [100], any spell with full cost [100] and Conjure Sword worth something like [20]. Paying extra [100] to be able to use Conjure Sword [20] if hardly fair, with so many points you could buy Altered Time Rate!

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So the question really boils down to "why would you buy a self-only Affliction rather than the straight ability"? (That's a different question from "what would the Limitation value be?")
I doubt there's any good reason outside of Sorcery's special circumstances. In this case, I'm trying to find out how to deal with self-buff spells with this system. A mage in Skyrim can have a spell that gives him, and only him, a magical sword for a few minutes, and he can use his off-hand to hurl fireballs. Without some Self-Only Affliction, this mage would: 1) be able to give anybody a magical sword; or 2) only use a sword or throw a fireball at time, and needs a second of concentration between them. A Self-Only Affliction would allow him to give himself a sword for a few minutes, and allow him to switch his spell to fireball, which is much closer to the game.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:22 AM   #16
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
If I outright buy the ability, either Flight or Innate Attack, as part of Sorcery, it goes against the problem that only one spell can be used/active at any given time. So a flying mage would have to fall to throw a fireball, or a conjuration mage would need to make a concentration maneuver between attacks with magical swords and fireballs.
If it's allowed to buy the ability separated from Sorcerous Empowerment, it would be way better but it could have some problem down the road when the mage learns how to buff allies with such ability. A mage with flight learning affliction (flight) would in effect be paying twice for the ability to fly himself (unless there's "others only" limitation on affliction, but I doubt such limation would be worth as much as 10%).
I see where the issue is - you need Simultaneous Spells (GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery, p. 8). Basically, you pay for the next most pricy ability to use two spells at once, the third for three, the fourth for four, and so on. So in your example you'd need to pay for the three most pricy spells to use your conjured weapon, fireball, and flight at the same time.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:51 AM   #17
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
I see where the issue is - you need Simultaneous Spells (GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery, p. 8). Basically, you pay for the next most pricy ability to use two spells at once, the third for three, the fourth for four, and so on. So in your example you'd need to pay for the three most pricy spells to use your conjured weapon, fireball, and flight at the same time.
Sorry, I had completely missed that extremely relevant giant box. When others mentioned it I felt it was very overpriced but after reading the box I now feel the price is right, given how much flexibility it gives. It doesn't give a way of using one specific spell simultaneously with other spells, so it would need some houserule to cover this. Purchasing said advantage as a separate power falls outside of Sorcery's rule, but as a houserule I feel it's decent and fairly balanced.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:58 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
It's not for a game, I'm trying to understand how Sorcery works.
I don't think it's possible to get it cheaper than plain Flight, as the way affliction granting advantage costs 10 + advantage cost. Even if the "Self Only" limitation were worth -80% (doubt it), it would only reduce it to 2+advantage cost, which is obviously more expensive than plain advantage.
Where it can get cheaper is if you're willing to stack on all sorts of limitations to bring it down to a net -80% to make an affliction only cost 2 points instead of the base 10. Multiplicative Modifiers would avoid that trick since you apply limitations to the increased value created by enhancements.

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
GURPS Powers, The Weird, has an example of "Accessibility, Self Only" at -20%. That's about where I'd put it for the beneficial Afflictions I'd expect to see it on. There is some loss of utility in that you can't buff your companions at need, but of course the Limitation is only going to show up where that's not an expected common use.
Given that you could take Melee Attack (C-range, cannot parry) for -35% to only be able to Afflict yourself or those in the same hex as you, it seems like Self Only ought to be worth more, unless you're applying that on top of Melee Attack.

"Contact Agent" also wouldn't impede hitting yourself with your own attack unless you were wearing armor and you had to target a smaller exposed area like a hand at -4.

If you had "Blood Agent" on an affliction you wanted to target yourself with, you'd have to touch yourself in the eye or in the mouth I think?

Last edited by Plane; 05-15-2019 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:35 AM   #19
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
Purchasing said advantage as a separate power falls outside of Sorcery's rule, but as a houserule I feel it's decent and fairly balanced.
As it should; Sorcery is a specific version of advantages, and not all purchased advantages need to be viewed through its lens unless your campaign has a rule of "anything supernatural must be sorcery only, no exceptions"
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:57 AM   #20
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Self-buff Affliction

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
When others mentioned it I felt {Simultaneous Spells} was very overpriced...
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Purchasing said advantage as a separate power falls outside of Sorcery's rule, but as a houserule I feel it's decent and fairly balanced.
Perhaps it's worth noting that Sorcery is a pretty straightforward application of existing rules (Alternative Abilities, where one ability (Sorcerous Empowerment) is a Modular Ability), rather than a completely new set of mechanics. The Simultaneous Spells rule is just the Sorcery-flavored version of the usual rule for having more than one ability in an AA set active at one time.

There's also no base rule that says all abilities have to belong to your AA set if you have one, or that you can only have one AA set, for that matter. It's perfectly legit to buy other abilities that exist in parallel with the Sorcery AA group. The GM might want to disallow that just to reflect the way magic works in the setting, but it's not inherently broken to buy abilities this way. Your standard super build would likely have at least their main attack, defense, and movement abilities all bought separately, as they're expected all to be used together.

Simultaneous Spells gives you some flexibility in that regard -- "any three" rather than "this attack, this defense, and this movement". If you have a need to go more defensive or supportive, you might want to have "defense, defend other, buff*" up, for instance. As you say, that flexibility is valuable. It's better than having a few separate, fixed, abilities.

The price of Simultaneous Spells is of course based on the cost for just buying the most expensive (N-1) abilities in the set separately plus an AA group of everything left, so it's not actually any more expensive -- unless the ability you want to be always available is a lot cheaper than your most expensive ability. SS has to be priced the way it is to avoid the obvious abuse of paying less for that expensive ability and always keeping it "swapped in". So if you really have to squeeze into your budget, splitting out a cheap ability that you expect always to want can come in a bit cheaper, at the cost of not ever being able to swap it for something else.

--
* this is one reason you might buy "defend" as an Affliction, rather than just an ability. Often you put it on yourself, but sometimes want to put it on a friend. If you need to protect a whole party and don't have time to cast a lot of spells beforehand, you might need Affects Others + Area Effect. Expensive, but sometimes you need to put up that anti-fear / mind control / AoE damage bubble on everyone at once.
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