Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-09-2018, 02:25 PM   #71
ColBosch
 
ColBosch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: New Skills

First Aid: I'd rather that not be a Skill. As SJ said, TFT has no "bleeding out" rules, so I've always felt that it's an assumed ability. Adventures just bandage each other up as needed, but healing takes real care.
ColBosch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:28 PM   #72
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Forgetting talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
... 2) I much prefer the new Talent XP cost system; but I can also see why you might be considering limiting the number of talents to the IQ level of the character. On the other hand, that drives us right back into those "forgetting spells and talents" rules, and I really never liked that system at all. ...
Hi JLV, everyone.
I agree with you here, a lot.

In my Pirate example above, my character grew up on the docks of Port RoughAndTumble, and as a kid with Thief being able to run away was a key survival skill. Also it helped in fights as he grew old enough to use a sword. So it makes total sense that the character started with Running talent.

However, now that he is on a ship, does the 2 memory for Running really help him that much? Being able to dump the mIQ for Running to take Boating and Seamanship would help a lot to try to make a Thief & Pirate double 'class' character work in the new TFT.

Maybe Kracken can also hypnotize you and allow you to quickly forget talents? That actually would be a little bit cool. Or maybe eating a funny jelly fish will do the job. But if we are back to extremely tight memory, being able to manage the mIQ spent on talents becomes a key strategy of TFT.

Warm regards, Rick.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:29 PM   #73
ColBosch
 
ColBosch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: New Skills

I really do not like constructions like "mIQ" or "fST." If memory or fatigue really need to be truncated, I'd prefer it was done in regular English rather than inventing more game terms.

I also do not like half-points.
ColBosch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:36 PM   #74
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: New Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Languages – Hmm. Having anything that costs less than 1 point add complexity. I suppose we might say “For a half-point, you can learn a language well enough to read it if you are Literate, and speak it well, but with an accent. For a full point, you sound like a native.” But that leaves a loose half-point floating around. Kind of GURPSy.
Perhaps what we need is a different approach to languages, writing/reading (literacy) and so on. Perhaps it shouldn't be tied to talents in the same way as everything else is. Maybe, instead of IQ levels and points, it should simply cost XP to learn a new language, and more XP to learn how to read and write that language. After all, even people of less than standard intelligence can learn to speak a native tongue, and several that I have known personally could speak more than one language, even if they were "illiterate" in the language. This would also allow you to differentiate the languages by type -- so learning to be literate in Mandarin Chinese might cost substantially more than learning to be literate in Russian would (for example). If you DO want to keep it tied to IQ in general terms, make learning to SPEAK a language an IQ 7 or 8 task, and LITERACY (by language) an IQ 9 or 10 task. Then, just vary the language/lieracy cost in XP based on the difficulty of the language (e.g., Sorcerer's Tongue is harder to learn than Common Speech is, and literacy for Sorcerer's Tongue is harder than literacy for Common as well).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Monster Followers – I have wondered how much those get used. They definitely have no basis in reality. Should I consider deleting them and using the space for other things, and possibly doing a whole splatbook, or section of a monster book, about it? Discuss, please.
YES. Frankly I don't believe I've EVER had a player take Monster Followers (and I think, in the past 38 years, only one has taken New Followers). I think part of the problem is that no one was sure how to play them or wanted to devote the time to figuring it out (as opposed to fighting and casting spells). I think putting it together in either a Bestiary or in an entirely separate splat book would be a GREAT idea -- since it would both better explain the skills, allow you the opportunity to provide various examples of the talents in use, and tie them directly into a series of creatures who could be best associated with the skills. So, from my perspective, removing them from ITL and replacing them with other, more user-friendly things, and then bringing them back either within a Bestiary or their own splat-book would be an ideal solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Two Weapons – I can see cutting that cost to 2. Heck, I fought with two weapons in the SCA, modestly well, and it did not fry my brain. I think it’s too powerful, mechanically, to cut to 1.
I do want to hastily offer a somewhat different perspective on this as food for thought; believe it or not, there ARE people out there who literally CANNOT handle two weapons simultaneously, no matter how much training they receive. I'm one of them. I simply cannot wrap my head around using my off hand independently of my dominant hand. It just doesn't work for me. I have excellent hand-eye coordination, and extremely fast reflexes (heck, I flew search and rescue helicopters for a living), but I still can't use two weapons properly under any circumstances -- and believe me, I tried to learn how to do this in both fencing and martial arts. I don't know if this in any way would modify your thoughts on this, but I offer it up as a point for consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Reduce IQ prereqs for UC talents – Maybe. They require dedicated training but not genius. Discussion?
Hmm. Part of the problem here is that learning a martial art isn't a straightforward training process the way learning how to box, or learning how to fence is. It's more a process of internalizing a mind-set than purely a process of learning moves by rote until they become "instinctual." I'm not saying that you have to accept the "philosophy" behind a martial art in order to properly use that martial art, but you do have to wrap your mind around a subtly different approach to the problem of combat than is common in western styles of fighting. Because of that, there IS a bit more to them than simply training your muscles to move in the proper fashion. On the other hand, you certainly don't have to be an Einstein to learn them; even quite average people have the capacity to learn them.

Again, maybe this is an area where varying the XP required to learn them is a more effective approach than placing them in the upper reaches of IQ -- maybe UC-V is an IQ 11 or 12 skill, but it takes five times as many XP to learn as would be indicated by its normal number of "talent points." I think something like that would be a better reflection of what actually goes on, than simply requiring someone to be a genius to learn the skills -- it takes time, not brain cells.

Last edited by JLV; 07-09-2018 at 02:49 PM.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:41 PM   #75
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default memory is based on attribute total & XP buys talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lord View Post
... Our "fix" for this perceived dilemma was to simply allow a character to have points of talents/spells/languages equal to half his character points round down. So a starting 32 point character would be able to take 16 points, a 36 point character would have 18 points and so on. ...

Of course YMMV, but we found this to be a simple "solution" that has served us well for decades. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
I like Jeff Lord's idea too.

What I really don't want to lose is the "Talents for XP" idea -- ...
Hi Jeff, JLV, everyone.
Jeff, this is a solution for tight memory IQ slots (mIQ) which I've not seen before. In a strange way it makes sense to me. If I get stronger, then I have an easier time learning Warrior / Veteran / Campaigner. If I get more dexterous, then I have an easier time learning Swimming or Fencing.

JLV, two months ago, the idea of buying talents with experience (XP) would have seemed very alien to me. But after a month or so of thinking about the new TFT working this way, I am finding I agree with you.

The new TFT has a very tight number of attributes that you can buy. So when you have maxed out that character, what does he spend XP on? It pretty much has to be talents and spells, right? The way I see the new TFT working, is that the XP spent on a talent or spell, REPLACES the rules for studying spells or talents. "You have spent 1000 XP on Chemist? Well obviously you have been studying it for a long time!"

So I don't think that this new mechanic will go away.

Warm regards, Rick.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:42 PM   #76
ColBosch
 
ColBosch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: New Skills

Thinking further on this, I don't really want any skills - even if they already exist in the game - that fall into one of these two broad categories:

GENERAL KNOWLEDGE: Running, First Aid, Cooking, etc. These are things any adventurer in TFT should know, and don't need to appear on character sheets.

PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE: Seamanship, Accounting, Administration, etc. If a character has a job, then anything related to that job that has no general use in combat should be assumed as being known.

Basically, I don't want to see characters being hobbled by having to take skills that have no important game effect.
ColBosch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:51 PM   #77
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default terminology and 1/2 memory talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I really do not like constructions like "mIQ" or "fST." If memory or fatigue really need to be truncated, I'd prefer it was done in regular English rather than inventing more game terms.

I also do not like half-points.
Hi ColBosch,
The word 'memory' has a lot of meaning and connotations in English, but when I use mIQ, I am speaking specifically to the TFT game idea that you have your IQ worth of memory slots to use for your character. Thus the terminology is precise and it needs only 3 characters to convey that idea.

(I've used mIQ for years in my campaign so it looks natural to me.) So I won't stop using it, but if it is any consolation to you, I doubt it will be used in the new TFT.

I think that the price of talents are too high. Most TFT campaigns have some rule or other that allows people to 'cheat' a bit (or a lot) on talents. Now if Steve really does not want to have 1/2 point talents, he could get rid of a few (maybe move Boating into Seamanship for example). But that will only get him so far.

Unless he wants to do some pretty major revisions to how he handles lower memory cost talents, I think this is something he has to consider.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-09-2018 at 03:35 PM.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:52 PM   #78
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: memory is based on attribute total & XP buys talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
The way I see the new TFT working, is that the XP spent on a talent or spell, REPLACES the rules for studying spells or talents. "You have spent 1000 XP on Chemist? Well obviously you have been studying it for a long time!"
Rick, to my mind, that's EXACTLY right -- plus it has the advantage of removing a metric ton of paperwork from the players (not having to track what talents they are learning) AND removing that punishing 1000XP penalty for changing your mind about what you're studying. All of which vastly simplifies both the players' and the GM's lives! ;-)
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 03:35 PM   #79
the1weasel
 
the1weasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Louisville, KY
Default Re: New Skills

In the past, i've pondered a Expert or Specialization talent for Wizards which would allow them to pay 1 less ST to cast (for example) Expert Summoner, Expert Creator, Expert Illusionist, Missile Specialist or Control Specialist.

Also, just as an athlete might do training for marathons and endurance tests of all sorts, I'd pictured a talent of Psychic Endurance. I think it'd look something like this:
PSYCHIC ENDURANCE(3) - When a wizard spends ST to pay the continuation cost of a spell, the PSYCHIC ENDURANCE skill allows them to power the spell for 2 turns instead of the normal one turn.
It goes to follow that if a Wizard could specialize in a particular type of spell and condition himself to be more equipped for the continued drain of ST for spells, he might also be able to learn how to recover more quickly:
MEDITATION(2) - When a Wizard with the MEDITATION talent rests specifically to regain ST lost to casting spells, they are able to recover double the normal amount of ST in the same amount of time. For every 15 minutes of rest, 2 ST points are recovered. MEDITATION can in no way recover ST lost from wounds.

EXPERT MEDITATION(3) - Prerequisite: the MEDITATION talent. When a Wizard with the EXPERT MEDITATION talent rests specifically to regain ST lost to casting spells, they are able to recover triple the normal amount of ST in the same amount of time. For every 15 minutes of rest, 3 ST points are recovered. This is NOT cumulative with the MEDITATION talent. EXPERT MEDITATION can in no way recover ST lost from wounds.
the1weasel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 03:38 PM   #80
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Talents all cost 1 memory. Discuss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Steve, everyone.
What is being suggested is that all talents cost one memory (mIQ), like spells.
Some thoughts:

...

However, if the price of talents drops to where you can take talents to make you two of these classes, then there are 15 x 14 = 210 possible characters that people could invent. There is a huge increase in the design space for heroes to grow into. In other words, there are far more ways to customize your character and make her different from Joe's character over there.
I want talking about canging the price of talents. I was asking for clarification on how many talents a character could know. UC V would still cost 11 points, it would just count as 5 talents against the total.

How a character gets points to spend on talents is (potentially) a different matter.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.