New Reality Seeds

[YankeeGamer]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

A grand set of fiendish traps fchase8!

Giving Centrum a world full of Nazis could be one heck of a poisoned gift. I wonder--if it looked like it would shift to Centrum-accessible only timelines, might some nutcase set things up so that, IF it reached Centrum's quantum, they got The Secret?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

There is also the problem that French industry and transportation was heavily centered around Paris. Once Paris was lost, French victory became far more difficult. You could get around this via an attack during the Phoney War, or prewar by having France shift its center of industry away from the border, or at least distributing things more defensively. Another possibility is the extension of the Maginot line along the Belgian border, but that leads to quite a few diplomatic complications.

Another good option might be for the French commitment to Czechoslovakia (which appears to have been taken more seriously than the British) to actually hold up in 1938. Hitler seems to have been angling for an actual war with the Czechs (alone) in 1938, if the Munich agreement had fallen out a different way, and he was sure Britain and Russia would stay out, but France wouldn't he might have taken a chance. With a year less German preparation (and they needed it), and the defenses in Sudatenland still in the hands of a Czechoslovak army that was considered pretty good in 1938 too - well if come winter there French armies in the Rhineland, Czech armies in Silesia, and Hitler is facing domestic rumblings for getting us into a war we apparently are not winning, maybe Germany could fold up. I suppose the big question here is what does Stalin do in 1939 if it looks like France and Czechoslovakia will shortly be partitioning Germany between them. He's not going to feel bad about a German defeat, but a rising French (or Czech!) superpower isn't good news either.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Another good option might be for the French commitment to Czechoslovakia (which appears to have been taken more seriously than the British) to actually hold up in 1938. Hitler seems to have been angling for an actual war with the Czechs (alone) in 1938, if the Munich agreement had fallen out a different way, and he was sure Britain and Russia would stay out, but France wouldn't he might have taken a chance. With a year less German preparation (and they needed it), and the defenses in Sudatenland still in the hands of a Czechoslovak army that was considered pretty good in 1938 too - well if come winter there French armies in the Rhineland, Czech armies in Silesia, and Hitler is facing domestic rumblings for getting us into a war we apparently are not winning, maybe Germany could fold up. I suppose the big question here is what does Stalin do in 1939 if it looks like France and Czechoslovakia will shortly be partitioning Germany between them. He's not going to feel bad about a German defeat, but a rising French (or Czech!) superpower isn't good news either.

The best recent scholarship I've read suggests Stalin believed that the "Western Imperialist Powers" would soon (within a couple of decades not weeks) destroy each other. So he'd be waiting for signs of weakness or a good opportunity to act.

[Astromancer]

The Thirty Years War is one those historical change points that doesn't get enough attention in the English speaking lands. Now I've suggested having Gustavus Adolphus survive the Battle of Lutzen. Gustavus was 38 at the time of the battle, if he brings the Catholic powers to the negotiating table and gets something like the Treaty of Westphalia sixteen years early the knockon effects are vast.

All the major powers would redirect their energies. Austria had wanted to attack the Ottoman state during this period. Allow them a free hand to strike east without worrying about their rear and you could have a new crusade. The Ottomans might have stated thinking about how the Europeans had changed about a century early when they had a chance to do something about it.

Without the financial and political pressures of the Thirty Years War, always a background issue in early 17th century England, Charles might not have fought with Parliament so often. Certainly the disgust of the more Protestant members of Charles subjects, that Charles wasted money on luxury but spent not one penny aiding the Protestant Cause, would be reduced.

The manipulations of Papal Nuncio Giovanni Battista Rinuccini were shaped by the Thirty Years War. He feared that Cromwell would lead an English Army (The New Model Army) to Germany. So he wanted Ireland to keep Cromwell busy. Thus he made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Ireland]the leaders of Confederate Ireland[/url] swear oaths, on pain of excommunication, that forced them to commit to a conquest of Britain and the enforcement of Catholicism on the British people, knowing full well that this would lead to an invasion of Ireland and a slaughter of vast numbers of Irish people. Remove the Nuncio's motivation and you remove much of the most brutal slaughters in Irish history. You might also remove Rinuccini's book which was little but some of the foulest slanders against the Irish.

The whole direction of removing the Thirty Years war early would be to unleash Europe's energies into exploration and colonialism early. That might sound like a small difference, but it would mean Europe and the East start on more equal terms and the East has a better chance to catch up and adapt.

Also, it leads to truly vast knock on changes even among societies totally marginal to the Thirty Years War.

[Astromancer]

The link the got botched was to Confederate Ireland.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Also, it leads to truly vast knock on changes even among societies totally marginal to the Thirty Years War.

I've always wondered if the 30 years war was key to the success of the early american colonies. If spain isn't involved in the war as long, do they have the resources and focus to see off or conquer the English settlers who are on land spain claims?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by fchase8

And what about killing Hitler and/or Stalin? If there was ever a time to break Infinity's no-killing rule, it would be during Hitler's rise to power and Stalin's famines & purges. But then maybe someone just as evil, but not as crazy/incompetent, comes to power...

I have no idea where this "Infinity's no-killing rule" idea is coming from as there are subdivisions that can and do kill.
Nexus Oversight and the the very black ops Interworld Special Weapons and Tactics cases in point. Rather it is the independent mercenary group Alternate Outcomes, Incorporated that has the "don’t kill anybody" policy.

In fact, ISWAT's director, Otto Skorzeny, "has a particular love of sabotaging, subverting, or otherwise hampering Nazi Germanies everywhere in the continuum." So, I can see him easily going into 'take out Hitler now' mode.

Originally Posted by fchase8

At Q6, it's reachable by Centrum. Surely Interworld wouldn't go this far - but they don't have Homeline's history with Nazis, and don't know about Reich-5.

"Interworld wouldn't go this far" (snicker). They nuked London in 1902 (GURPS Time Travel) so killing one person is nothing.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've always wondered if the 30 years war was key to the success of the early american colonies. If spain isn't involved in the war as long, do they have the resources and focus to see off or conquer the English settlers who are on land spain claims?

Good point. Spain bitterly resented first the English and then the American presence. The Viceroy of Mexico, upon hearing of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, sent troops north into the Louisiana Territory to kill them. Spain would have loved to snuff out those colonies and only Virginia was favored/respected by the crown.

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The Thirty Years War is one those historical change points that doesn't get enough attention in the English speaking lands. Now I've suggested having Gustavus Adolphus survive the Battle of Lutzen. Gustavus was 38 at the time of the battle, if he brings the Catholic powers to the negotiating table and gets something like the Treaty of Westphalia sixteen years early the knockon effects are vast.

That's kind of what happened on Shikaku-Mon, where Gustavus Adolphus was successful in the "Fifteen Years War".

Originally Posted by maximara

I have no idea where this "Infinity's no-killing rule" idea is coming from as there are subdivisions that can and do kill.
Nexus Oversight and the the very black ops Interworld Special Weapons and Tactics cases in point. Rather it is the independent mercenary group Alternate Outcomes, Incorporated that has the "don’t kill anybody" policy.

In fact, ISWAT's director, Otto Skorzeny, "has a particular love of sabotaging, subverting, or otherwise hampering Nazi Germanies everywhere in the continuum." So, I can see him easily going into 'take out Hitler now' mode.

Well, Infinity officially has a 'no killing rule.' Instead they send people to Coventry. It's so Infinity can maintain a moral high ground with national governments and other Homeline actors, and as a general P.R. move on Homeline.

It would depend whether outside Homeline actors knew about this world. If it was just the discovering team at Infinity, maybe it could be shunted over to ISWAT. But if anyone else on Homeline sees Hitler or Stalin killed, they'll know it was Infinity that was responsible.

And I always thought that ISWAT and the like just handled the super-powerful worlds, ones with magic, psionics, supers, etc.

And it's not like killing Hitler and/or Stalin is going to solve the problem of FDR's death. America might still spin out, and a more effective totalitarian leader(s) might rise.

Originally Posted by maximara

"Interworld wouldn't go this far" (snicker). They nuked London in 1902 (GURPS Time Travel) so killing one person is nothing.

In GURPS Time Travel, it was said that Infinity believes that the nuking of 1902 London was a political issue on Centrum, and that those responsible were removed from power. No more interventions like this have happened since.

But I was more saying that even Interworld wouldn't aid Hitler/Nazis, by killing FDR. Maybe. If Hitler's true evil didn't put them off, his racism & insanity would.

And FDR would probably appeal to Interworld - English-speaker who centralized authority (and was relatively more 'enlightened' about race, and particularly gender, for leaders in his time).

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The whole direction of removing the Thirty Years war early would be to unleash Europe's energies into exploration and colonialism early. That might sound like a small difference, but it would mean Europe and the East start on more equal terms and the East has a better chance to catch up and adapt.

Also, it leads to truly vast knock on changes even among societies totally marginal to the Thirty Years War.

This might be bad for Russia, since they were trying to recover from the Time of Troubles.

For changepoints I'd wonder about some better overall resolution to Catholic-Protestant, or some deaths or survivals among the Hapsburgs leaving the less unified (or more unified).



(I should note that most of my knowledge of the era comes from the 1632 series.)