Main-Gauche

[Original_Carl]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Sounds as though, to clean it up wile remaining compatible with existing shield rules, the MG should just be treated like a small shield except (advantage) you have a dagger in hand (disad) it does not protect in any way against missile attacks or the attack of a two-handed weapon.

This is how I read it as written in ITL. No DX penalty, blocks 1 non-missile, non-2-handed attack from the front 3 hexes and can be used with the attack option against the same foe at -4 to DX (both attacks) but you give up the protection when you do that.

I assumed the ‘1’ in the DX column on page 110 in ITL was a typo. <shrug/>

You can’t shield rush with a main-gauche, but you have it if you’re sucked into HTH. I don’t know, Steve, it seems like a viable choice for a little protection, but this makes me wonder why not just allow this with any old dagger in the left hand?

[VisceralShoe01]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Re. main-gauche vs. dagger; for most users (barring people with specialized talents the MG provides a point of protection (like a small shield) whereas the dagger does not.

The rule book said that either the dagger or the MG gives you the -1 from hits. And that the -4 dx is for attacking with the left hand. But that is in the melee rules. I haven't read ITL so idk if that is changed. But, thanks for clearing up the -2 dx question for me. But it says verbatim on page 13 of melee, "The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes. If you take an attack option, you can also make a separate dagger attack against the same enemy. It is rolled at -4DX. A main-gauche gets 1D-1 in HTH combat. A fighter may not use two daggers, or a main-gauche and dagger, in HTH combat."
So it seems that a dagger does anything a MG can do, but does 1D+2 in HTH combat. And it doesn't say anything about not being able to make the separate left hand attack when you parry. That was literally the entire left-hand dagger paragraph on page 13 of melee. Does any of that change in ITL?

[JimmyPlenty]

Originally Posted by VisceralShoe01

My question about the MG is this. Why would anyone take a MG Iver a dagger if the dagger does 1d+2 in HTH combat, while the. MG still just does 1d-1 damage in the same situation? Also while the dagger still apparently has the same parrying capabilities as the MG. Or did I miss something? I have only gone through the basic melee rule book. So idk if anything is revised in ITL...

The MG does the same damage as a dagger in HTH (ITL; 122)

In The Labyrinth also mentions that a dagger or MG is based on ST on this table +3

8 or less 1d-4
9 or 10 1d-3
11 or 12 1d-2
13 or 14 1d-1
15 or 16 1 die
17 to 20 1d+1
21 to 24 1d+2
25 to 30 1d+3
31 to 40 2d+1
41 to 50 3d+1

If you don't have In the Labrynith yet...I suggest you do so. It's great and the PDF version (which I assume will be updated at times) is $18 at Warehouse 23

[VisceralShoe01]

Or I could not be lazy and read ITL for myself lol. But it seems like a shield and dagger combo could be potentially deadly, if you can manage to knock your opponent down. They still have to take a whole turn to get up. So you could, in theory, shield rush, knock the person down and already be in HTH, the person then takes a turn to get up, then on your turn you start shankin. But that really only works if shield rushing puts you on this hex, the rules in melee doesn't really specify this though. But even if it doesn't, they still have to take the turn to get back up, and if you move before they do you could move into their hex while they are prone on your next turn... Idk though...

[VisceralShoe01]

Thanks for the clear up JimmyPlenty. I do have ITL, just haven't got around to reading it. But is that damage for just normal attacks with dagger or MG, or does that attack damage also apply in HTH also? In melee, it says that both dagger and MG do 1d-1 normally. But in HTH, the dagger does 1d+2, whereas the MG still only does 1d-1 in HTH... I guess either way, at the end of the day it's all up to the GM how anything works. SJGames has always stressed that point lol. But being fair is important also.

[JimmyPlenty]

Originally Posted by VisceralShoe01

Thanks for the clear up JimmyPlenty. I do have ITL, just haven't got around to reading it. But is that damage for just normal attacks with dagger or MG, or does that attack damage also apply in HTH also? In melee, it says that both dagger and MG do 1d-1 normally. But in HTH, the dagger does 1d+2, whereas the MG still only does 1d-1 in HTH...

No problem!

The HTH damage is what I showed you. The normal damage for a dagger or a MG is 1d-1. So they both do the same in any situation.

The only real difference is the MG gets a -1 hit / -1 DX tradeoff and cannot be thrown.

Just thinking now, I was wondering, to make the MG a little juicer, to make it -2 hits when using a defend maneuver. Not much, but an extra incentive to use it.

[VisceralShoe01]

Thanks again JP... Ok so there is indeed considerable changes in ITL from melee then. In melee rules, the dagger seems way better than MG since both can parry one hit. And MG still can't be thrown in melee whereas the dagger can... But neither one pits penalty on dx in melee rules. From what your saying, it seems like they balanced the MG and daggers better. Because in melee, daggers are just straight up superior to MG. And it's a default weapon.

[hcobb]

The Main-Gauche is great, if you're a Fencer.

Attack with Rapier and parry with the Main-Gauche for 1 hit native plus 2 hits for the off-hand parry. Compare with 2 hits for small shield plus Shield Expertise (with an additional -1 DX on the attacker that also applies against Lightning bolts.)

[VisceralShoe01]

But the dagger can also parry one hit in off hand as well... In melee that is, idk in ITL...

[larsdangly]

1) As far as I can tell, nowhere does it say you forego the 1 point of protection from a main-gauche when you opt to do the off handed attack. And, in LE ITL at least, it does not say that your main attack suffers the -4 penalty. So, basically the off handed -4 attack is a freebee that you should always do.

2) A off handed dagger that is not a main gauche does not provide 1 point of protection. In principle, I think it could provide 2 points of protection when used with the Two Weapons talent, but that is a special exception.