Armor

[schoon]

Like the new linear progression for penalties.

Don't care for Armor Talents.

The "fine" modifier seems like an unnecessary addition - though I'm not necessarily opposed to some sort of "change via crafting" system.

[MGregory]

I'm in favor of the proposed DX adjustments and including both cloth and half-plate armor in Melee.

If there was a fatigue penalty for armor, then a compensating talent would make sense. Otherwise, keep it simple.

[Skarg]

The reasons I've suggested adding a talent to reduce armor DX penalties are:

1) Because I think TFT's DX penalties for armor are too high in three ways:
___i) realistically, and in comparison to other DX penalties, the armor DX penalties seem far too high
___ii) it's now a commonly known point even in non-gaming Internet chatter that even plate armor doesn't make people clumsy after they learn to use it
___iii) for balance purposes, it's generally a disadvantage for 30-32 point fighters to wear armor, especially more than leather or anything lowering adjDX below 9.
2) What fighters tend to do in TFT is buy up DX so that they can wear armor and still have a viable adjDX. It seems to me this represents fighters getting good at fighting, and fighting in armor, and yet it has various other effects, and ends up with many very-high DX characters who usually wear armor all the time and soak up that DX, and this seems more accurately represented by people who can fight in armor, but are not otherwise super-dextrous.
3) Since I know some people are very attached to TFT as-was, I thought this could be a compromise way to address 1) and 2) without changing the 32-point situation we all remember from Melee arena fights.
4) Since there is no IQ cap on talents in the current draft EP system, this seemed like a reasonable thing for figthers to do with their EP.

However, I agree with some counter-arguments, mainly that armor familiarity may not realistically take so much to amount to a TFT talent. TV shows have shown people learning to do stunts in plate. Amateur SCA folk say it isn't that hard to learn, etc.

Yes of course warriors would almost all want to learn it, at least at the point they're thinking about improving DX but learning a talent would be cheaper, and that's a bit dull and predictable and complicated for something everyone does. On the other hand, if there were some other fighter talents that were competing with it, maybe that could be an interesting choice, but maybe that's too fiddly for what it gains, given that the goal is a simple system that doesn't diverge too much from original TFT.

Based on the reactions, maybe the armor DX penalties should just be lower. Or maybe they should just be left in and left to house-rulers to post more realistic armor stats. Or maybe more realistic stats could be an optional offering with official suggested values for that.

I don't much like high ST as a way to reduce armor DX penalties, as it doesn't fit my understanding of the situation, it's not available to moderate-ST fighters, and it's like you can raise ST to raise adjDX too.

Although I don't know that it will go anywhere for this TFT publication, I would mention too that I think an armor penalty could make sense if it made the wearer more easy to be hit, as opposed to making it hard for the wearer to hit others. GURPS and some other systems (Dominions) have this effect.

As for fine armor, I used Fine Chainmail in my campaign as suggested in Interplay: 4 hits stopped, -2 DX, MA 6, because I knew historically there was some superior chainmail developed. It didn't (& still doesn't) seem like fine cloth/leather stopping more hits made much sense to me, though (since I now think armor DX penalties are way too high) I could see it having reduced DX penalties. One excellent TFT GM I know added a boiled leather armor entry, but I don't recall what stats he gave it. Half Plate has always been weird since it looks like the worst trade-off for DX penalties and represents mixed levels of coverage - it was mostly avoided in play. If it had been 4 hits stopper for -4 DX it might have seen more use, except by the time someone was DX 16+ (the point at which it's not usually counter-productive to reduce your DX by 4 with armor), they or their employer would tend to invest in fine chainmail or fine plate for them instead.

If I were to house-rule it for myself off-hand, I'd probably do something like:

Cloth: 1 hit stopped, -0 DX, MA 10
Leather / gambeson: 2 hits stopped, -0 DX, MA 8
Chainmail: 3 hits stopped, -1 DX, MA 6
Fine Chainmail: 4 hits stopped, -1 DX, MA 6
Plate: 5 hits stopped, -3 DX, MA 6
Fine Plate: 6 hits stopped, -2 DX, MA 6

And +1 to be hit by melee attacks in chainmail, +2 to be hit in plate.

I'd do that because it seems realistic to me, though clearly wearing no armor would almost never be chosen, and lots of people would wear leather (that's also about what happens in my GURPS campaigns...).

[flankspeed]

(1) Regarding armor DX penalties versus hits taken, I say, "Yes!" to Steve's original post about equalizing them from Cloth at -1 DX for -1 Hit all the way up to Plate at -5 DX for -5 Hits.

I forget if Cloth and Leather armor were allowed to be layered underneath other armor, but if layering were to be allowed at a cumulative DX penalty of all armors worn, then the reduced DX penalty for Half- and Full-Plate armors would be very appropriate.

Incidentally, I am doubtful but open to arguments about needing rules for "Great ST" to reduce armor penalties. If a Giant were to wear armor, he would need to wear proportionately giant-sized armor. Thank goodness for that, or Giants would get a free lunch when wearing armor that I think would throw off game balance.

Even an incredibly strong human who wears armor probably needs to shop at "Ye Olde Big and Tall Armor Shoppe," thus increasing the bulk of the suit worn and keeping the DX penalty proportionate to normal levels.

(2) Regarding a Talent for armor, I would be reluctant to add it since wearing armor already bears an inherent DX penalty, and wizards already must avoid any armor heavier than Leather due to the -4 DX penalty for iron/steel.

If playtesting were to somehow indicate that wizards should be even further restricted from wearing armor, then a Talent could be added to reflect how a wizard must spend double the cost to learn that Talent, but this is the only purpose I could see such a Talent serving in the game.

An "Armor Master" Talent could be added to reduce DX penalties, of course, but only if playtesting were to indicate some usefulness to allowing characters to buy up IQ rather than DX to improve their DX-based rolls while wearing armor.

(3) Regarding including Cloth and Half-Plate armor in Melee, I respond with a resounding, "Yes, PLEASE!" If layering of armor were to be allowed, that may be something to leave for the "Advanced Melee" portion of the big book of advanced rules, but it could also be included in Melee if playtesting were to indicate that it is not too confusing for new players.

[zot]

Originally Posted by flankspeed

(1) Regarding armor DX penalties versus hits taken, I say, "Yes!" to Steve's original post about equalizing them from Cloth at -1 DX for -1 Hit all the way up to Plate at -5 DX for -5 Hits.

I forget if Cloth and Leather armor were allowed to be layered underneath other armor, but if layering were to be allowed at a cumulative DX penalty of all armors worn, then the reduced DX penalty for Half- and Full-Plate armors would be very appropriate.

Incidentally, I am doubtful but open to arguments about needing rules for "Great ST" to reduce armor penalties. If a Giant were to wear armor, he would need to wear proportionately giant-sized armor. Thank goodness for that, or Giants would get a free lunch when wearing armor that I think would throw off game balance.

Even an incredibly strong human who wears armor probably needs to shop at "Ye Olde Big and Tall Armor Shoppe," thus increasing the bulk of the suit worn and keeping the DX penalty proportionate to normal levels.

Not to mention that surface area for bipeds scales with the square of height, you could argue that armor DX affects would be worse for giant armor.

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by zot

Not to mention that surface area for bipeds scales with the square of height, you could argue that armor DX affects would be worse for giant armor.

Thanks for bringing that up! I won’t vote for increasing the DX penalty right now since I think the hallmark of TFT is the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Steve) Principle, but I do see your point.

[larsdangly]

The armor penalties could be reduced significantly without damaging the realism of combat in TFT, but you would have a pretty different dynamic in the way fighters match up. Basically, a well armored combatant would not be readily defeated by anyone but another well armored combatant, unless the two were radically mis- matched in ability. That sounds about right, but means you will have a lot of pressure to obtain and wear armor. You could counter balance this with something other than DX penalties. For example, I really like to play TFT with with a half dozen house rules about temporary ST damage (like spell casting) incurred for various physical challenges (climbing, hot environments, running, hiking long distances, etc.). This adds a D+D like resource management to the game, which is surprisingly interesting and challenging. Anyway, if you gave people temporary ST damage for wearing armor (a point per hour or something, and you have to get out of it to recover) it would make people take the stuff off when they are not expecting trouble.

[larsdangly]

FYI, here is a table of armors from my 'maxi house ruled' version of TFT; there is a lot more to it, covering Japanese armors, Roman armors, shields, etc., but this gives you the flavor of the thing. The prices are in pence, shillings and crowns; the notion is that 'mail' includes lamellar, byzanted, etc. I formatted it correctly but it didn't print right! I'll try to fix it later, but if you spend a second you can probably like up the rows.

Medieval Armors
Hits DX, MA Min. Weight
Armor Type Stopped penalty ST Cost (Kg)
Cloth 1 -1 8 20 p 4
Leather 2 -2 9 40 p 7
Partial Mail 3 -3 10 15 s 12
Full Mail 4 -4 11 30 s 25
Improved Mail 5 -5 12 4 c 30
Platemail 6 -6 13 10 c 35
Full Harness 7 -6 12 30 c 25
Maximilian plate 8 -8 (-6)* 13 50 c 30
* Lower DX penalty applies when mounted

[Steve Jackson]

Now I need to save a line on that page.

Did anyone ever really throw rocks, or should I ditch that entry?

[Steve Jackson]

For those keeping score at home, the progression will indeed become linear, and I will TRY to get the other armors into Melee. That little book is crammed right now and I don't want to interfere with what little Danforth art we have.