Staff, mana, stored ST

[Cjannise]

I would suggest a Wizards staff not store strength, but rather be able to channel mana from surroundings into a Wizard over 12 uninterrupted turns alleviating all fatigue damage. This will keep the original balance of the game intact, and allow for rapid rejuvenation between encounters.

[Jack O'All Trades]

As I see it, we want to keep the old tactical situation, including the effect of high ST casting wizards, while having a 40 AP cap. And we *also* want a bit more endurance between tactical battles, especially for more high level wizards.

Idea 1) Staff Mana works as an ST battery as proposed by SJ, but can only be used to re-energize continuing spells. This means pulling out the big ST fireball is still a move of desperation and a large sacrifice, but maintaining various defensive, and summoning spells are a bit less frightening - and you're more likely to use those spells if they aren't eating into that get-out-of-jail fireball, but I don't see it fundamentally changing the flow of a classic Wizard duel between similarly skilled wizards (more survivable defenses cancel out the lower STs of good wizards, while 32 point wizards aren't getting mana for their Staff anyway).

Idea 2) As others have suggested, Staff Mana can be used to replenish actual fST, but only as an action (X per turn). This creates a new tactical option though it does make wizards a bit more powerful. Alternatively, it takes X turn, in which case it usually will be out of combat, which better preserves the original tactical play.

These ideas seem to be best together. That way the last ditch fireball is a risk, should it fail, and is also still a sacrifice - probably using up a significant portion of your Staff for the rest of the adventure - but you keep the spells more balanced against each other instead of favoring summoning and the like too much if you just use idea (1).

Both of these, like any new Staff powers, will disturb the balance towards Wizards. As it is, Sleep can take anyone down. Staffs are already viable melee weapons against normal opponents. I'd suggest that making saving throws against 'negative effect' spells like Sleep would go a long way towards preserving the balance while adding some new interesting abilities for wizards.



PS: I have really enjoyed playing TFT with no Hero/Wizard divide, as a slightly more 'mythic' variant. Spells are just 1-cost talents for the Heroic Figures (PCs, villains, Fae), and you can cast while using iron all you want. Just a different sort of setting and the rules still work great.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Cjannise

I would suggest a Wizards staff not store strength, but rather be able to channel mana from surroundings into a Wizard over 12 uninterrupted turns alleviating all fatigue damage. This will keep the original balance of the game intact, and allow for rapid rejuvenation between encounters.

That changes the available daily ST, which unbalances magic item creation unless you adopt some kind of "mana flow" idea, like I suggested way back in this thread, to limit the total amount of ST you can draw that way in a day.

[JLV]

It would be easy enough to do what zot suggests -- say, "a Wizard may not expend more than twice* his current ST in mana points per day." So a Wizard with ST 8 would only be allowed to spend 16 mana points from sun-up to sun-up, or whatever timeframe you want to put in as a "day."

(*Or "thrice," or whatever multiple seems appropriate for the game.)

Something like that would go a long way to preventing the sort of abuses that were talked about with regard to the Healing Spell, as well... And at that point, the expenditure of mana to support spell casting suddenly becomes a lot more worthy of consideration (another form of resource management) by the Wizard character; "Do I heal this guy now, before noon, or do I save the points for a possible future need?")

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Cjannise

I would suggest a Wizards staff not store strength, but rather be able to channel mana from surroundings into a Wizard over 12 uninterrupted turns alleviating all fatigue damage. This will keep the original balance of the game intact, and allow for rapid rejuvenation between encounters.

It would achieve the desire some people have to reset everyone to full between combats, but it would change the balance and remove the resource-management game for other situations, e.g.:

* Death Test 1 & 2 have 15-minute rest periods before being required to advance to the next room. That's usually enough to recover 1 point of fatigue, so this rule would change the balance of wizards in such adventures dramatically.

* In adventures that track actual situations and time, how much wizard fatigue to use (or how long to rest & recover them) was a major consideration. For example, if you have one physicker and three people to heal after a combat, that normally gives the wizards 15 minutes - enough to rest off 1 fatigue. This 1-minute recharge change would have the wizards suddenly waiting for the physickers to finish healing people, instead of vice versa.

* There are many powerful spells (or just, the power of using lots of spells) that are balanced by the way it fatigues your wizards and makes them need to rest, and/or be in danger of collapsing. That's a big part of the existing balance. If wizards can rest all fatigue in 1 minute, that goes way. Also, consider apprentices (and non-wizard people who know the Aid spell): they will also be able to recover in 1 minute, meaning you may have to deal with some of the most powerful spells on a 1-minute reload basis, instead of knowing your enemies need to rest a few hours before sending another Demon your way, or whatever other uses of ST. i.e. outside the arena, it would jack up the power of wizards a lot.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

...Idea 1) Staff Mana works as an ST battery as proposed by SJ, but can only be used to re-energize continuing spells. This means pulling out the big ST fireball is still a move of desperation and a large sacrifice, but maintaining various defensive, and summoning spells are a bit less frightening - and you're more likely to use those spells if they aren't eating into that get-out-of-jail fireball, but I don't see it fundamentally changing the flow of a classic Wizard duel between similarly skilled wizards (more survivable defenses cancel out the lower STs of good wizards, while 32 point wizards aren't getting mana for their Staff anyway).

I like this idea a lot. It seems to me that maintenance costs are often a deterrant to using protective spells and summons more... I think it would call for some playtesting and review of the spell list, but I like this suggestion a lot.

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

Idea 2) As others have suggested, Staff Mana can be used to replenish actual fST, but only as an action (X per turn). This creates a new tactical option though it does make wizards a bit more powerful. Alternatively, it takes X turn, in which case it usually will be out of combat, which better preserves the original tactical play.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

These ideas seem to be best together. That way the last ditch fireball is a risk, should it fail, and is also still a sacrifice - probably using up a significant portion of your Staff for the rest of the adventure - but you keep the spells more balanced against each other instead of favoring summoning and the like too much if you just use idea (1).

Both of these, like any new Staff powers, will disturb the balance towards Wizards. As it is, Sleep can take anyone down. Staffs are already viable melee weapons against normal opponents. I'd suggest that making saving throws against 'negative effect' spells like Sleep would go a long way towards preserving the balance while adding some new interesting abilities for wizards.

I'd need more playtesting/thought/analysis/sleep to have a firm opinion, but my impression has long been that maintenance costs of some spells tends to have them often be less good choices than those without.

I agree that I'd welcome some sort of resistance to such spell effects. Not sure how many people would object, though.

Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades

PS: I have really enjoyed playing TFT with no Hero/Wizard divide, as a slightly more 'mythic' variant. Spells are just 1-cost talents for the Heroic Figures (PCs, villains, Fae), and you can cast while using iron all you want. Just a different sort of setting and the rules still work great.

Yes, they do. It's just a different sort of world/game, where everyone can use magic, and it's not a balance issue if everyone the game cares about can do it.

Seems to me it's still important to have the rules for the hero/wizard divide, to support games & settings where wizards are the exception rather than the rule.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Seems to me it's still important to have the rules for the hero/wizard divide, to support games & settings where wizards are the exception rather than the rule.

I agree 100%. I don't mind if someone wants to do away with it, but for those who prefer it, the structure should remain in place. Besides, it's always easier to eliminate something and still make the rest work, than it is to have to invent something entirely new and try to make that work! ;-)

[BrotherBill]

Idea 1) Staff Mana works as an ST battery as proposed by SJ, but can only be used to re-energize continuing spells. This means pulling out the big ST fireball is still a move of desperation and a large sacrifice, but maintaining various defensive, and summoning spells are a bit less frightening - and you're more likely to use those spells if they aren't eating into that get-out-of-jail fireball, but I don't see it fundamentally changing the flow of a classic Wizard duel between similarly skilled wizards (more survivable defenses cancel out the lower STs of good wizards, while 32 point wizards aren't getting mana for their Staff anyway).

I like this as well. A wizard (of any attribute level) could "spend" 100 EP on improving his understanding of the staff, and for each application the staff would generate (daily) 1 ST which could be used--only--to power continuing spells, making them more viable in the game. Of course, they might be released if the staff blew up...

[the1weasel]

I just stumbled upon this thread today. All I can say is Wow...what an awesome storehouse of ideas, regardless of how the Staff progresses from here, we all certainly have a plethora of ideas for house rules should we desire them! I'd like to say thanks to all who've participated up to this point.

I have to admit that in my ancient teenage GM past, I'd often allowed wizard characters to stumble upon a small and rare (5-10 ST) Strength Battery early on if they were having trouble with resource management (as it's sometimes referred to nowadays). My own wizard went so far as to carefully carve out a secret hollow (merely 3 dice vs. IQ to spot) within his trusty wooden Staff in which to store the precious Battery, thus functionally creating this new concept.

[Steve Jackson]

Data point: I'm enamored of the proposal to limit strength of missile spells to 3 ST. So nobody is going to walk up with a Powerstone and throw a 50-die Magic Fist to knock down Big Ben.

I think that a magic item allowing slightly bigger zaps could be possible, but I would not put it on the shopping list. You might fiind one, and if you want to keep it, keep your mouth shut about it and don't leave survivors to talk.