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Old 06-29-2018, 11:33 AM   #21
pyratejohn
 
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Default Re: Thoughts on Arquebus.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Richard Sharpe was little concerned when someone aimed a smooth bore musket at him from 20 yards since he knew the odds were good that he would be missed. (At 10 yards he was worried.)

Smooth bore weapons are extraordinarily inaccurate. I think it is ridiculous that a primitive smooth bore gun is TFT's most accurate missile weapon.
Fwiw, at the Fort Frederick Governor's Cup Firelock Match one of the guys who would regularly win could hit a man-shaped target in the head 10 times out of 10 with his Charleville musket. I forget the range, but faded memories are telling me it was 50 yards.

(And now I'm having flashbacks to the black powder firearms portion of the GURPS Low Tech playtest.)
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Old 06-29-2018, 12:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

There are lots of specific cases of particular people being much more accurate with their weapons than the vast majority of infantry in formation were. Indeed, that's why "light" infantry, Jaegers, and other specialized "skirmishing" units were created in the first place, and also why such units received special marksmanship training. Regular infantry, back during the Napoleonic Wars was trained to shoot in the general direction of the enemy as a suppressive technique, not so much to inflict actual harm. Put another way, they were trying to break up the enemy formation and make them flinch so they could get close enough for "shock" tactics (bayonet charges, mostly) to break their morale and make them run away.

The introduction of rifled muskets at roughly the time of the American Civil War changed the lethality of musketry quite substantially, which is why average casualties from musketry during the Mexican-American War and the Civil War changed so drastically. But, if you take a look at the Mexican-American War, you'll see casualty figures and causes that are very close to the Napoleonic War norms.

The fact is though, that an arquebus or a blunderbuss were far less accurate and easy to reload, aim and fire than even a Napoleonic musket ("Brown Bess" type) was. As it stands, I do agree that the arquebus is substantially over-powered in TFT. Of course, as someone else pointed out, you could justify that by claiming that while the weapons functional properties are primitive, the actual manufacture might be substantially better, since the world of Cidri has fallen from a place of Mnoren technology, as opposed to inventing the weapons from scratch.

So, you pays your money, and takes your choice, I guess...
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Old 06-29-2018, 12:55 PM   #23
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

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There are lots of specific cases of particular people being much more accurate with their weapons than the vast majority of infantry in formation were.
And those are the people who are Player Characters, with Talents, etc.
:)
As for the accuracy of arquebus and the blunderbuss, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 06-29-2018, 03:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

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Originally Posted by pyratejohn View Post
And those are the people who are Player Characters, with Talents, etc.
:)
...
Hi PirateJohn.
In that case, you wouldn't mind fighting 4 arquebusiers rather than 2 plus 2 crossbowmen in this room? (Whistles innocently.)

My compromise of 'primitive rifling' I am not entirely happy with. But those weapons fired spherical balls (which are badly effected by turbulence) and they often were off round, so the bullets would not leave the barrel straight. I suspect that your expert marksman went to extraordinary effort to find perfectly spherical balls which were a tight fit to the barrel.

Now that is possible for TFT Gunners to do, but is not what the typical soldier in those days (who likely was casting his own bullets in a bullet mold) was doing.

Warm regards, Rick
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:37 PM   #25
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Default Clockwork room.

Steve Jackson can use these ideas freely, in exchange for acknowledgement of my work. (signed) Richard W. Smith.

Map & Terrain:
This is a melee map sized room that has walls in the northern most line of mega hexes. (So it is 2 Mhex wide, rather than the normal three Mhex wide. No exits work until the Battle Machine is defeated.

The ceiling is 6 yards high.

Enemy:
There is a 5 hex battle machine. It is in the shape of a large giant or Ogre, with a big back pack (which holds it's chemical fuel). It has 3 front hexes, 4 sides, and 4 rear hexes.

............... F ........ F ........ F

........ S...... *#*****#* ....... S

.. S ....... *#*****#*****#* ....... S

........ R ....... R ........ R ......... R


Clockwork Battle Machine: ST 33, DX 8, IQ 0, MA 12, Metal body stops 6 hits. It can swing its spiked arm for 4d–5 damage.

Once per battle its operator (whom is watching thru peep holes in ceiling), can trigger a dozen mini-grenades mounted around waist. When these grenades are triggered roll 1d6. On a 6 the gunpowder is bad and there is no effect. Otherwise these explode throwing metal fragments and nails, which do 1d+1 in hexes adjacent to the battle machine, and 1d–1 damage to all figures 2 & 3 hexes away from it.

There are several ways to destroy the machine.
-- 33 points of damage which gets thru its armour will kill it.

-- Aiming at its backpack is an attack at –2 adj DX. The attack must be able to reach a target 4 meters off the floor. The backpack has 4 points of armour. If an attack hits the back pack and does 4 or more damage after armour, the internal tanks are smashed and it will stop after the current turn is finished. If the attack on the backpack does 1 to 3 damage (after its armour) will puncture it and its alcohol fuel will slowly leak out. The thing will keep running for 18 turns. However, it its tank is punctured again with 1 to 3 damage, reduce this time by six turns for each subsequent puncture.

-- It is a bit top heavy. A Magic fist to its head that does 8 or more hits (ignoring armor) will topple it. Lassoes or whips around the head will require a 6vsST to topple it. (Up to 3 people may pull on rope adding their ST.) Once it is toppled, it will stop moving and players may exit the room.

-- A Mechanician within 3 hexes of the thing, may spend an action and attempt an IQ roll to find a weakness:
----> First turn of studying it.: On a 4vsIQ he or she will spot a gear that can be jammed in its upper leg. An attack at –2 DX which does 4 or more damage will immobilize it. (It can still swing its arms, but can not adjust its facing or pursue the party.) If this attack is made from the sides or rear, add the +2 (side) or +4 (rear) to the –2 DX for hitting the gear. (Once it is immobilized, the party may leave the room.)
----> Second turn of studying it. The mechanician may spend another turn, and then attempt a 3vsIQ roll. If this roll succeeds, the mechanician will spot an access panel on its front. Attacks on it (at –4 DX) thru a front hex will only have 2 points of armour to get thru.
----> Third turn of studying it. Make a 2vsIQ. If the roll is made, suggest that it is top heavy and that its backpack seems to be carrying fuel. Also you don't think that further study will help.

Special Rules: It can not be retreated. It may push smaller figures back. If they fall and it tramples them, it will do 6 dice of damage due to its huge mass.


Suggested battle machine strategy. Push someone back and make them fall down, then hit them with +4 DX for being on the ground. Use your one shot grenade if mobbed, or when they get behind you.


Suggested player strategy. Bring a mechanicer, or guys that can do a lot of damage.


Treasure:
Half hidden by the back pack is a storage compartment in its neck. This is trapped: 4vsIQ to see the trap, 3vsDX to disarm. If trap goes off, compressed air will fire a cloud of sharp metal fragments which will do 2d–8 damage to the person opening the storage hatch. Inside is a potion. If you drink it, then roll on the random potion table. If not drunk, it may be sold back to the Thorsz for $1,000, if you escape.

Note, if the party contains a Chemist or Alchemist, they may make a 3vsIQ to identify the potion based on cryptic notes on bottle.

Random Potion Table: (Roll 1d6):
1.... A one point healing potion.
2.... A three point healing potion.
3.... A healing salve. (Like a 1 point healing potion, but can be given to unconscious figures who can't drink. Also heals double on burn damage.)
4.... Endurance Potion. Restores 3 fatigue ST.
5.... A poison! Figure who drinks it is at –1 DX for the next 3 rooms.
6.... Fire proofing potion. Subject is immune to fire damage for one day.


Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-05-2018 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

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Originally Posted by pyratejohn View Post
And those are the people who are Player Characters, with Talents, etc.
:)
As for the accuracy of arquebus and the blunderbuss, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
So, you're saying that you think anyone could hit the broad side of a barn with an arquebus at 250-400 meters? I'd LOVE to meet that person! ;-)

Most of the folks I know couldn't hit a man-size target with an M-16 at 150 meters, much less using something like an arquebus.
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
So, you're saying that you think anyone could hit the broad side of a barn with an arquebus at 250-400 meters? I'd LOVE to meet that person! ;-)

Most of the folks I know couldn't hit a man-size target with an M-16 at 150 meters, much less using something like an arquebus.
A Barn is pretty doable, if one overcharges a bit and under-load on pellets. Hitting men not in formations was pretty much luck at all times. There's a reason later shotguns are not fluted...
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:53 AM   #28
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
So, you're saying that you think anyone could hit the broad side of a barn with an arquebus at 250-400 meters? I'd LOVE to meet that person! ;-)

Most of the folks I know couldn't hit a man-size target with an M-16 at 150 meters, much less using something like an arquebus.
Actually, no, that's not what I was saying at all. I believe I was saying at a musket competition I saw people who could easily hit a man-shaped target at a distance of 50 yards and that smooth-bore arms using a mechanically driven spark or flame-based ignition system are not as inaccurate as your quote from the Sharpe's novel supposes they are.

I'm fairly certain that, using my stack of research notes from the GURPS Low Tech playtest, my bookcase full of 17th and 18th century titles on combat and military drill, coupled with my practical experience from reenacting the era for over a decade, I can come up with a system that comes close to reality while holding to the simplicity of Melee/Wizard/TFT.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:06 AM   #29
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

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Actually, no, that's not what I was saying at all. I believe I was saying at a musket competition I saw people who could easily hit a man-shaped target at a distance of 50 yards and that smooth-bore arms using a mechanically driven spark or flame-based ignition system are not as inaccurate as your quote from the Sharpe's novel supposes they are. ...
Hi PyrateJohn,
I would be very interested in the details of this competition. Were they firing round balls or mini-balls? What was the exact range? Were they using precisely cast balls which were fitted to the barrel, or typical balls that were used historically? Were they using modern replicas (with modern tolerances for the barrel), or arquebuses created in that period? Were the arquebus' they were firing actually rifled? (Some were historically, but this was very rare.)

A competition where modern sharpshooters use every advantage to be as accurate as possible is a far cry from what was found on the battle fields in the 1550's. Because from my readings of the period, (which extends well beyond the Sharpe novels), suggest that smooth bore weapons were wildly inaccurate by modern standards. And soldiers consistently putting shots into head sized targets, at 50 yards seems VERY good to me.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:35 AM   #30
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Default Re: Modular Death Test

Hi Rick,

I'm getting ready for our opening session of Tollenkar's Lair, so I don't have time to go into details at the moment.

I asked some of my friends who also competed if they remembered the distance to the target. A younger friend, who I suspect has a better recollection, said he thought the distance was 25 yards. Another friend chimed in with the following:
ifn I recollect rightly it was five rounds at 60 yds, five rounds at 50 yds, five rounds at 25 yds, then back to 50 yds for three minutes
I think the difference between the two is, as I recall, from the fact that the event had multiple competitions, for everything from pistols to rifles to muskets to cannon. I only competed in the musket, and there may have been two different challenges there, one at 25, and another advancing and withdrawing.

I'll have to ping some of my other reenacting friends, since I haven't been able to find any good records of the event by searching online.

Yrs&c,
John
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