When is a Dodge comitted?

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Helborn

Why declare? so that a player knows how many dice to roll, etc. etc.

Yes. That helps me suss it out of my brain. You declare your intentions before movement. PCs move in order of adjDX. Now it's time for the action phase. When it's a PC's turn to ACT comes (in order of adjDX), he may change his mind about what he wants to do. Once he rolls the dice, there's no going back.

Example:
Round 1:
Movement phase: X (adjDX14;sword) declares he's going to attack Y (adjDX13;sword). Y declares he's going to defend. X moves up to half his MA and enters a front hex of Y. X and Y are now engaged. Y cannot move without changing his "declaration" to "disengage". Y decides to stick with his earlier "declaration" of "defend".
Action phase: X rolls 4die to hit Y. He misses. Y's turn. Y can't change his action from defend because X has already rolled 4die. Round 1 Over.
Round 2:
Movement phase: X can't move without selecting "disengage" as his option. He chooses attack. Y's turn. Y decides to "disengage". He shifts one hex.
Action phase: X rolls 3die to hit Y. He hits and rolls damage. Y's turn. At this point, Y could continue with his "disengage" option but he decides to attack instead. Note that Y could choose to "defend" but it wouldn't affect X's attack that already happened. If there were another figure, Z (adjDX12), the defend would apply to his coming attack.

[chrisbender]

My thinking is that since the dodging happens during movement, players who choose the dodge option have completed their entire option once movement is complete. Once you have completed your option you cannot choose to change it later on in the turn.

Relevant rules (from my GM screen PDF):

Movement. In turn, each player chooses one option
for each of his figures, and executes the movement
part (if any) of that option

DODGE. Move up to 1/2 MA while
dodging.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by chrisbender

My thinking is that since the dodging happens during movement, players who choose the dodge option have completed their entire option once movement is complete. Once you have completed your option you cannot choose to change it later on in the turn.

Relevant rules (from my GM screen PDF):

Movement. In turn, each player chooses one option
for each of his figures, and executes the movement
part (if any) of that option

DODGE. Move up to 1/2 MA while
dodging.

I agree. And I thought of that at some point during all of this but I was trying to focus on something else first.

What do you think about charging? I think that's another one that a PC should be held to once they start moving. But I don't see anything in the rules that expressly forbids changing your charge option in the action phase.

[Kax]

And the length and complexity of this does nicely show that hcobb needs to restate the question with useful details and possibly a picture before we can answer it.

[chrisbender]

Originally Posted by platimus

I agree. And I thought of that at some point during all of this but I was trying to focus on something else first.

What do you think about charging? I think that's another one that a PC should be held to once they start moving. But I don't see anything in the rules that expressly forbids changing your charge option in the action phase.

I think you could house rule it to work this way and it wouldn't really hurt anything. However, I think the rules do allow you to change your mind somewhat, but your options are pretty limited.

Once you've moved the only real options you could change to are drop, cast a spell or disbelieve (if you only moved one hex), ready new weapon (if you only moved 2 hexes or less), or not attack. I don't expect players will choose one of these options over attack very often, so I doubt this will come up much.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by chrisbender

I think you could house rule it to work this way and it wouldn't really hurt anything. However, I think the rules do allow you to change your mind somewhat, but your options are pretty limited.

Once you've moved the only real options you could change to are drop, cast a spell or disbelieve (if you only moved one hex), ready new weapon (if you only moved 2 hexes or less), or not attack. I don't expect players will choose one of these options over attack very often, so I doubt this will come up much.

I agree with that assessment. Thanks.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Kax

And the length and complexity of this does nicely show that hcobb needs to restate the question with useful details and possibly a picture before we can answer it.

This is true but I felt extremely stupid last night before I gave up and went to bed. I got distracted and missed what he was really asking too. If I had just re-read the title of this thread "When is Dodge comitted?" I would have stayed on-target. Unfortunately, I rarely look at the title of a thread after I click on it. I will try to change that behavior.

Thankfully, chrisbender was clear-eyed enough to bring us back on-target.

[larsdangly]

Melee/TFT works as a combat engine because it has simple but specific rules governing movement and actions, which enables players to make meaningful tactical choices, sort of like a game of chess. This only works if both sides understand, accept and follow the rules. A central rule is that your action can be anything that is consistent with your 'option', which is effectively controlled by what you did during the movement phase. You are never committed to the choice of which of those possible actions you must do, until the very moment when you perform it. Think of it as sort of like the way you can move chess pieces around the board however you want until the moment you set one down in a new place and remove your hand - then and only then you are irreversibly committed.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Melee/TFT works as a combat engine because it has simple but specific rules governing movement and actions, which enables players to make meaningful tactical choices, sort of like a game of chess. This only works if both sides understand, accept and follow the rules. A central rule is that your action can be anything that is consistent with your 'option', which is effectively controlled by what you did during the movement phase. You are never committed to the choice of which of those possible actions you must do, until the very moment when you perform it. Think of it as sort of like the way you can move chess pieces around the board however you want until the moment you set one down in a new place and remove your hand - then and only then you are irreversibly committed.

I agree. Very good analogy with chess. Once your hand leaves the piece, your move is over. It cannot be changed or undone. Once you do something, you can't undo it. Before you do something, you can always change your mind. But, generally, the closer to a deadline you wait to make a decision, the less options you have.

I think this is why Movement and Action are broken up into two separate phases instead of "On your turn, you move and act". The movement phase introduces the chess-like features of TFT combat. You see how everyone else is moving and they see how you are moving. You can draw some conclusions about what they likely intend to do based on their movement. You can plan your movement and actions accordingly. It's also sort of like playing Poker. You can see only part of everyone's hand. Based on this and what the other players discard/redraw, you can make educated guesses about what their final hand will be. When the Action Phase arrives, it's time to reveal your entire hand.

EDIT
Hmm. I'm now wondering how feasible it would be to convert Melee/Wizard into a card game...

[Kax]

Originally Posted by platimus

I agree. Very good analogy with chess. Once your hand leaves the piece, your move is over. It cannot be changed or undone. Once you do something, you can't undo it. Before you do something, you can always change your mind. But, generally, the closer to a deadline you wait to make a decision, the less options you have.

I think this is why Movement and Action are broken up into two separate phases instead of "On your turn, you move and act". The movement phase introduces the chess-like features of TFT combat. You see how everyone else is moving and they see how you are moving. You can draw some conclusions about what they likely intend to do based on their movement. You can plan your movement and actions accordingly. It's also sort of like playing Poker. You can see only part of everyone's hand. Based on this and what the other players discard/redraw, you can make educated guesses about what their final hand will be. When the Action Phase arrives, it's time to reveal your entire hand.

Which, getting back to the OP, indicates that it's foolish for Y to make any assumption about actions that don't include X still being a proximate threat so the question doesn't come up as stated.