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Old 03-02-2013, 11:05 PM   #11
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
There's no reason that it can't be included in Flying in this case. It's analogous to Hiking including knowledge of the effects of weather and terrain on marches.
I have been using the Flight skill for that, yes, while Aerobatics is what I use for maneuvering in combat. Some PCs have neither skill, some have one or the other and one has a high skill level at both.
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Old 03-03-2013, 01:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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Are they are any rules for Fatigue cost of operating vehicles for extended periods?
I don't think there are any in 4e, but 3e Vehicles suggested something like 1 FP per 2 hours, or 1 FP per hour in bad weather if exposed to it.
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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I don't think there are any in 4e, but 3e Vehicles suggested something like 1 FP per 2 hours, or 1 FP per hour in bad weather if exposed to it.
Ah, good. That sounds plausible.

I was hesitant to rule that floating serenely above the ground at speeds equal to a running horse was equally tiring on an hour to hour basis as hiking.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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Presumably they are navigating by looking at the ground, following roads and rivers, or going from landmark to landmark? Do they have magnetic compasses?
So far, landmark navigation is what they have been relying on. Not always successfully, in the case of one PC who was defaulting from his fairly minimal orienteering knowledge.

The spellcasters among them could use a fairly simple spell to mimic a compass, of course. But that's only worth doing is there are significant disadvantages to navigating by Mark One Eyeball. And it would still leave the warriors and 'roguish' types high and dry, so to speak. If they gain a significant advantage from magically emulating compasses, however, they could invest in magical items, I suppose.

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They'd want to be at least a few hundred feet up, to get time to react to hazards and so that people taking potshots at them have a hard time hitting. But being higher than that starts making the air colder, and warmth is a problem. Think of WWI aviators: some of the same problems apply, but your whole body is exposed to wind-chill. Goggles to keep the wind off your eyes are definitely advisable at 80mph.
What kind of magic would have the same effect? Is any kind of DR that covers the eyes enough?

If not, what would be the game effects of not having goggles?

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Turbulence is not very dangerous if you don't have large wings for the air currents to grab, and at low altitudes is fairly predictable from the landscape and weather.
What is 'not very dangerous' in game terms? How frequent? What kind of skill penalties?

During any kind of combat, the PCs like to do all kinds of edge of the envolope stuff and merely a slight extra penalty could lead to catastrophic crashes.

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Weather Sense skill is definitely advisable for long-distance fliers. Not flying into storms is simple enough, but spotting that they're on the way is harder.
One PC has a default of 10 for Weather Sense and another has default 9. Others have worse. I guess that's their weak point.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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What is 'not very dangerous' in game terms? How frequent? What kind of skill penalties?
To give a relative scale: a 20 mph downburst hitting a flying vehicle will rapidly (within 1-2s) cause the flying vehicle to start moving downwards at 20 mph. A 20 mph downburst hitting a human who's flying using non-aerodynamic thrust will apply something like 5 lb of downwards force.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

Assuming a temperate climate there is the possibilty that more than a few thousand feet off the ground rain would become snow or ice as well as the possibility that by flying through clouds the characters clothing could become damp or wet which could lead to hypothermia or iceforming.
Then there is the possibility of fantastic hazards like hostile winged folk and flying monsters.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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Assuming a temperate climate there is the possibilty that more than a few thousand feet off the ground rain would become snow or ice as well as the possibility that by flying through clouds the characters clothing could become damp or wet which could lead to hypothermia or iceforming.
Most of their flying so far has been done on the breakpoint between a subtropical desert climate (like Iraq) and a Mediterranean climate (again, like Iraq, in the coastal regions).

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Then there is the possibility of fantastic hazards like hostile winged folk and flying monsters.
Yeah, that sort of hazard I know about. It's the more mundane ones I want more information about.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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To give a relative scale: a 20 mph downburst hitting a flying vehicle will rapidly (within 1-2s) cause the flying vehicle to start moving downwards at 20 mph. A 20 mph downburst hitting a human who's flying using non-aerodynamic thrust will apply something like 5 lb of downwards force.
Ah, so really not that significant at all. I thought it could at least push them a couple of feet off-course, which might result in unfortunate accidents.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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The standard lapse rate in the atmosphere (or at least the part we care about) is 0.65 C per 100 meters. It gets colder fairly quickly.

FAA regulations require oxygen (or a pressurized cabin) above 10,000 feet. (12,500 for passengers.) You can probably take that as an upper limit -- with all the usual caveats about magic and whether the setting is mostly like Earth in other respects. For all I know, this is one of those settings where you can fly a giant riding swan to the Moon.
Physics in the setting are Earth-like unless some magical effect interferes. Atmospheric temperature ought to be the same, I should think.

On the other hand, you can travel to the Moon in the setting and there is atmosphere and all. But you use spelljamming ships for it, not riding swans. Or you can teleport, I suppose.

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Wind chill isn't quite the same factor for the flyer, because the air isn't moving past you and removing heat. Once your feet leave the ground, you move with the wind. Your ground track is the vector sum of the way you think you're flying and the wind. And 20 mph is not that high compared to wind speeds at altitude. The wind chill wouldn't be based on the actual wind speed, but your own speed through it.
Assuming that the PCs usually fly directly to whereever they are going, at 20 mph, no matter where the wind is blowing, will they experience wind chill from 20 mph plus any possible winds against them?

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Keep in mind that wind speed typically increases significantly as you gain altitude. It also changes direction thanks to friction and Coriolis.
What are the winds like at 1,000-2,000 feet?

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For navigation as well, you'll probably want to keep the altitude fairly low -- a few thousand feet -- if you're following streams or taking bearings from mountains. You'll want to stay below the clouds. As one reference, the standard operating altitude for the Hindenburg was only 200 meters -- though being an LTA craft has something to do with that.

WWI pilots sometimes flew nearly to 20,000 feet, and there were a number of reports of symptoms like "the bends" from the lack of pressure support. Typical cruising altitudes were a few thousand feet.

Modern jets fly at 30-35K feet for performance reasons. The thinner air means less energy to move it out of the way, and better fuel efficiency. Jet engines usually develop their most efficient thrust at about that altitude. And with radio navigation or GPS, the lack of ground detail doesn't matter.
The PCs generally cruise at about 1,000 feet. That's just to prevent people on the ground taking potshots, though. I'm sure they'd be amenable to choosing a different altitude if there was any reason for it.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: Magical Flight Hazards and Other Considerations

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Ah, so really not that significant at all.
It may be quite dangerous to someone using Walk on Air (which might behave just like an aerodynamic flier), but as far as I can tell movement college flight is just telekinetic levitation, in which case air movement is about as dangerous as is to a person standing on the ground -- which is to say, it won't do much until you're dealing with hurricane force winds.
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