[Fantasy][Powers] Wendigo Possession in Unkillable Spirit Form?

[JCurwen3]

I'm confused... really by the whole build of the Wendigo, but I'll start with my main issue, that of how its Unkillable 3 seems to be able to work.

The creature (on Fantasy, p. 53) has:

Unkillable 3 (Reincarnation, -20%; Trigger: Only manifests physically after new host kills another human and eats his flesh, -12%)

and:

Possession (Only in Unkillable Spirit Form, -10%; Sense-Based, Hearing, -20%; Spiritual, -20%; Preparation Required, 8 hours, -30%)

and:

Mind Control (Symptoms: +10 ST, Unnatural Features: Gaunt, Glowing eyes, Long tongue, Matted hair, Sallow skin, +105%; Conditioning Only, -50%; Only victims of possession, -30%)

The way it's all supposed to work is that the wendigo (in Unkillable spirit form, no less) actively howls in the wind, and a potential victim hears this, and then after 8 hours the victim gets their Quick Contest to avoid Possession. Then, the wendigo apparently is just inside the body, but has no control over it. It needs to use its Mind Control ability to make the victim eat human flesh, and then the wendigo possesses that victim, really the body becomes the wendigo's body with its exact original stats and appearance.

Questions:

1. How does it do anything in Unkillable 3 spirit form? The limitation Trigger prevents it from healing (in this case, after the new host it somehow finds, possesses, and mind controls all while suppossedly unconscious!), and Reincarnation just means it gets a new body (even though in the end all the new body's stats and its appearance are really the same!). Unkillable 3 as written has the unkillable character be unconscious upon reaching -10xHP, upon which they need to heal to full HP before doing anything. This build suggests they're at least partially aware, able to scope out victims, and then possess and mind control them. And what's worse, they actually get a discount from Reincarnation for eventually an identical body, and a discount from Trigger even though it's not about triggering the onset of the healing process (~1 HP/day since there's no regen listed), but rather suggests that the wendigo will have full HP instantly and all it has to do whilst in its totally indestructible Unkillable 3 spirit form is find someone who will fail a few Quick Contests and then eats a human's flesh. How is all this supposed to work? How is this a fair build, how does it work with the RAW?
2. Now the Possession and Mind Control bit. Ignoring the fact that it's not supposed to be able to possess anyone whilst at -10xHP indestructible Unkillable 3 spirit form (that's covered in #1), why does the creature have to Mind Control the victim once it's succeeded a Possession? I see no limitation on the Possession that says "actually, this is really just Permeation (Flesh) with some frills until I get the guy to eat some other guy's flesh". This is another divergence from RAW - this is not how Possession works!
3. Since when is Symptoms an allowable enhancement for Mind Control? Actually, how does it even work, considering Symptoms is what happens as a result of HP or FP loss that you'd place on something like an Innate Attack, and also AFAIK not meant to bestow advantages like the +10 ST.

To add some more confusion, the wendigo has Hard to Kill 2. WHY?!?! It already has Unkillable 3, which means it never needs to make death checks. And all of those traits only apply once the wendigo is fully physically manifest (i.e., has gotten the host to eat human flesh), so none of them apply to the host prior to that. What does the HtK2 actually do for it? There's no indication it has something akin to RPK's Mortal limitation for Unkillable 2 and 3 (that removes the benefits of Unkillable 1).

Can someone help me understand this build? Based on the wendigo's description I could have built it with the RAW, and not so seemingly mind-bendingly not-RAW. Am I missing anything? Yes, I know it's a monster, but giving it detailed stats and point costs (1) opens it up to being considered for a "PCs as monsters" game (and, IMO, this is not a rules legal build nor is balanced) and (2) provides a precedent for players to borrow bits and pieces from the established template for their own template and character ability suggestions.

[Refplace]

Ill take a stab at it.
With Unkillable 3 you have the option to be a Spirit form so your aware and able to act but not physically until you heal.
Mind Control is a power that is mental so can cross over.
Possession should IMHO also but maybe they thought it wouldn't in this case for some reason.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Ill take a stab at it.
With Unkillable 3 you have the option to be a Spirit form so your aware and able to act but not physically until you heal.
Mind Control is a power that is mental so can cross over.
Possession should IMHO also but maybe they thought it wouldn't in this case for some reason.

Originally Posted by Basic Set, p. 95

Unkillable 3: As Unkillable 2, except that at -10xHP, you become a ghost, an energy pattern, or some other incorporeal form that cannot be contained or damaged through normal means. At this stage, you fall unconscious and heal normally. [...]

You're explicitly unconscious in this form. The benefit of this (for which you pay exactly [50] above Unkillable 2) is that no one can trap your remains or keep damaging them to prevent your "getting better". It's not a license to drift around getting information whilst insubstantial and invisible, and certainly not to use any abilities. And that's for good reason: both Unkillable 2 and 3 have built into them total 100% Invulnerability to All Damage - you can't be harmed past -10xHP. This is balanced by making this invincible state entirely unable to act in any other way aside from self-repair.

Imagine a build where someone took Unkillable 3, sold ST (and thus HP), and HT down to 1 each (whilst maybe buying up FP), got Unhealing, and spent loads of points in mental abilities, like TK, or Mind Control. Their goal: die quickly, never heal, and be in totally indestructible and untrappable telekinetic mind controlling ghost form forever. Game over. Hence, this is why it seems to me this build is highly rules-illegal (even nonsensical) and definitely heavily unbalanced.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Can someone help me understand this build?

Sorry, it's years since I did it and I can't retrace the logic without more work than I have time for.

Bill Stoddard

[David Johnston2]

There are obviously mistakes. The Hard to Kill was supposed to be for the possessed body, while the Unkillable only applies to the Wendigo spirit itself. Just chuck the build and move on.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

[*]How does it do anything in Unkillable 3 spirit form? The limitation Trigger prevents it from healing

This part, at least, is understandable to me. The trigger is not preventing the healing while incorporeal, but just the manifestation of a new body after the healing is complete.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

This part, at least, is understandable to me. The trigger is not preventing the healing while incorporeal, but just the manifestation of a new body after the healing is complete.

Although as per the description the Unkillable 3 character is unconscious until it heals to full HP.

I noticed a more rules-clear-and-legal version of the Wendigo in Horror. More how I would have done it.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Although as per the description the Unkillable 3 character is unconscious until it heals to full HP.

I noticed a more rules-clear-and-legal version of the Wendigo in Horror. More how I would have done it.

Not if it's in a spirit form instead, by how the description reads to me. Looks like under that option full HP is when it rematerializes.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Not if it's in a spirit form instead, by how the description reads to me. Looks like under that option full HP is when it rematerializes.

Yeah, the thing needs to heal but instead of creating a new body it apparently has to possess one.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Not if it's in a spirit form instead, by how the description reads to me. Looks like under that option full HP is when it rematerializes.

That's a big part of my issue, because that's how I read it too... letting the thing float around in an incorporeal, untrappable, indestructible form, all the while able to observe people (very useful in and of itself) and use mental abilities (like Mind Control) should be worth a major enhancement to Unkillable 3, maybe even on the order of +300%, if there even is a fair value for what'd amount to total invulnerability to all damage whilst being able to affect the world around you. But there's no enhancement that would justify this for the build working so differently from the RAW (worse yet, it saves points on the Reincarnation limitation which isn't even a limitation because it seems to get the ability to transform its new possessed victim into an exact copy of its old form).