[MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

[Sunrunners_Fire]

As brought up in another thread, the ability to use other people as willing sacrifices appears to be problematic for some GMs as it allows the witch to accumulate awesome amounts of energy without risk (other than the sacrifice's potential death if drawn upon sufficiently).

My question is: Does a magically (or psi) controlled or influenced sacrifice count as "willing"? They do understand what is being asked of them, and they do consent, even if that consent is coerced.

By default, I'd say yes, but I'd like confirmation and/or arguments one way or the other. :)

[vicky_molokh]

If acting under coercion disallows use of sacrifice, then sacrifice will almost never work in adventures - e.g. not wanting your friend to die, and thus risking a sacrifice is a case of being indirectly coerced into it.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

My question is: Does a magically (or psi) controlled or influenced sacrifice count as "willing"? They do understand what is being asked of them, and they do consent, even if that consent is coerced.

If you're using psi, magic, etc., to make someone sacrifice his FP or HP, he's not "willing." Willing means, "Done, borne, or accepted by choice or without reluctance." The "choice" part is rather important there. If you'll forgive the harsh analogy, Mind Control and similar effects don't produce a "willing" subject any more than date-rape drugs produce a "willing" participant.

Rogue witches can certainly enslave people and sacrifice them, but they have to do it the old-fashioned way (murder) using the Unwilling Sacrifice rules from MH3.

Coercion is okay, because the person is still making the choice. "Help me or I'll kill your wife," is a valid threat, because he could choose to let his wife die. But Mind Control takes away that choice completely -- he's not making the sacrifice, you are making it on his behalf.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If acting under coercion disallows use of sacrifice, then sacrifice will almost never work in adventures - e.g. not wanting your friend to die, and thus risking a sacrifice is a case of being indirectly coerced into it.

That's not coercion, that's voluntarily sacrificing yourself for your friend. And the subject here is mystical or psychic coercion, anyway.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

That's not coercion, that's voluntarily sacrificing yourself for your friend. And the subject here is mystical or psychic coercion, anyway.

I consider it indirect, unintended/unwilling coercion (through threatening a friend) ['You made me do it! Now you will pay!'], but RPK has spoken, and cleared up the situation that is actually relevant to the OP.

[Novembermike]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I consider it indirect, unintended/unwilling coercion (through threatening a friend) ['You made me do it! Now you will pay!'], but RPK has spoken, and cleared up the situation that is actually relevant to the OP.

You made a choice out of free will. You don't get to say "I didn't mean it" as long as you actually make the decision.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Novembermike

You made a choice out of free will. You don't get to say "I didn't mean it" as long as you actually make the decision.

Well, if somebody was actually holding a friend or family member hostage and threatening to kill them if you didn't comply, that would indeed be coercion. But agreeing with your friends or allies to voluntarily sacrifice yourself to save another friend or ally would not. Coercion requires there to be some agency trying to force you to act in a certain way. Since in the second case your enemies are straightforwardly trying to kill or torture your friend, they don't actually want you to do everything possible to rescue them, up to and including self-sacrifice, so they're not coercing you, your friends are not coercing you but rather letting you make the choice yourself, so while you may feel your choices in that situation are a bit constrained, given the danger to the friend and your feelings of loyalty or code of honor, it's not actually coercion so long as nobody's trying to force you to make a certain choice.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Well, if somebody was actually holding a friend or family member hostage and threatening to kill them if you didn't comply, that would indeed be coercion. But agreeing with your friends or allies to voluntarily sacrifice yourself to save another friend or ally would not. Coercion requires there to be some agency trying to force you to act in a certain way. Since in the second case your enemies are straightforwardly trying to kill or torture your friend, they don't actually want you to do everything possible to rescue them, up to and including self-sacrifice, so they're not coercing you, your friends are not coercing you but rather letting you make the choice yourself, so while you may feel your choices in that situation are a bit constrained, given the danger to the friend and your feelings of loyalty or code of honor, it's not actually coercion so long as nobody's trying to force you to make a certain choice.

Fair enough.

[Novembermike]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Well, if somebody was actually holding a friend or family member hostage and threatening to kill them if you didn't comply, that would indeed be coercion. But agreeing with your friends or allies to voluntarily sacrifice yourself to save another friend or ally would not. Coercion requires there to be some agency trying to force you to act in a certain way. Since in the second case your enemies are straightforwardly trying to kill or torture your friend, they don't actually want you to do everything possible to rescue them, up to and including self-sacrifice, so they're not coercing you, your friends are not coercing you but rather letting you make the choice yourself, so while you may feel your choices in that situation are a bit constrained, given the danger to the friend and your feelings of loyalty or code of honor, it's not actually coercion so long as nobody's trying to force you to make a certain choice.

It's still a free choice. You can let them kill your family member. The only time I would consider it out of your control is if you don't agree and it happens anyway.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

If you're using psi, magic, etc., to make someone sacrifice his FP or HP, he's not "willing." Willing means, "Done, borne, or accepted by choice or without reluctance."
[....]
Coercion is okay, because the person is still making the choice. "Help me or I'll kill your wife," is a valid threat, because he could choose to let his wife die. But Mind Control takes away that choice completely -- he's not making the sacrifice, you are making it on his behalf.

I don't think the coercion case is compatible with the common understanding of "without reluctance" if you're dealing with impersonal forces like most spell magic, and with respect, "by choice" is a value judgment more suitable to be made by the placated or petitioned being than given a blanket treatment by a supplement writer. Feeders on dark emotions might reward decisions under duress equally or more generously than the virtuous unsolicited martyrdom that would impress a more paternalistic, moral divinity.