[RPM] Questions - Mana Enhancer, Stacking Dispel, Spell Chains, Item Cost

[Lia Valenth]

Hello, I have been looking into Ritual Path Magic lately and (as the GM) I have a few questions I can't figure out how to rule on;

1. “Spells cannot make anyone better at using magic…” (RPM book page 15) what happens if you cast an effect to give someone levels of Mana Enhancer?

High mana levels gives a lot of different bonuses, but one the biggest is the boon to casting a spell or having spells cast on you. So, under the above rule, should I disallow Mana Enhancer from being granted through RPM entirely (like Magery and Ritual Adept), limit it to granting all the bonuses higher mana levels have with magic items, but not with living casters, or just have it work normally if granted by a spell?

2. Can you use a spell with high energy to auto-dispel other effects?

I realize this is exploiting a loophole, but could you use this spell;

Shine Body
Spell Effects: Lesser Strengthen Body.
Inherent Modifiers: None.
Greater Effects: 0 (×1).

Causes the target to become slightly shinier for 1 minute.

This Casting: Lesser Strengthen Body (3) + Duration 1 Minute (1) + Extra Energy, +140 (141) + Range, 20 yards (6).150 Energy.


To automatically dispel any Lesser Strengthen Body effect on a person that costs less than 150 Energy without an opposed Path check?

3. Could you use a cheap Create Greater Crossroads to make a weak spot that does not go anywhere, just so you can use a Lesser Control Crossroads and Lesser Transform Crossroads to make it go far away? Or use Lesser Create Matter to create raw materials and Lesser Transform Matter to make a complex object like a car or aircraft carrier without a creation roll?
For example;

Create Scar
Spell Effects: Create Greater Crossroads
Inherent Modifiers: Duration
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).

This creates a scar in reality, used specifically to allow the caster to create gates or contact other planes easier.

Typical Casting: Create Greater Crossroads (6) + Area of Effect: 2 yards (0) + Duration: 12 hours (6). (12x3) 36 Energy

And then use that weak point to use this;

Create Gate
Spell Effects: Lesser Control Crossroads + Lesser Transform Crossroads
Inherent Modifiers: Range + Area of Effect + Duration
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).

This creates a gate 2yards in radius allowing humans, and their equipment, to pass through. It can connect to an area within 200,000 yards and disperses after 10 minutes.

Typical Casting: Lesser Control Crossroads (5) + Lesser Transform Crossroads (8) + Duration: 10 minutes (1) + Area of Effect: 2 yards (0) + Range: 200,000 yards (28) + Speed: 200,000 yd/s (28). 73 Energy.

4. I am also looking into pricing of RPM made permanent magic items in a market. I plan to have magic items cost (CP^2)*(.01*Starting Wealth) so;

CP cost of item      TL3 - $1,000    TL8 - $20,000     % of starting wealth
5                      $250              $5,000                25%
10                     $1,000            $20,000               100%
20                     $4,000            $80,000               400%
30                     $9,000            $180,000              900%
50                     $25,000           $500,000              2,500%
80                     $64,000           $1,280,000            6,400%
100                    $100,000          $2,000,000            10,000%

Does this seem fair as the base price?

If any of these have been discussed elsewhere on the forums a link to the thread would be appreciated.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

1. “Spells cannot make anyone better at using magic…” (RPM book page 15) what happens if you cast an effect to give someone levels of Mana Enhancer?

High mana levels gives a lot of different bonuses, but one the biggest is the boon to casting a spell or having spells cast on you. So, under the above rule, should I disallow Mana Enhancer from being granted through RPM entirely (like Magery and Ritual Adept), limit it to granting all the bonuses higher mana levels have with magic items, but not with living casters, or just have it work normally if granted by a spell?

RPM uses Desecrated / Consecrated Spaces and Places of Power, instead of the standard Mana Levels. There are Thaumatology-based procedures for consecrating and desecrating (see RPM pg 20-21), while Places of Power either exist naturally or develop over years or centuries. I would not allow an RPM ritual to perform any of these tasks, though there might be supernatural creatures with Mana Enhancer who function as a mobile Place of Power.

2. Can you use a spell with high energy to auto-dispel other effects?

I realize this is exploiting a loophole, but could you use this spell;

Shine Body
Spell Effects: Lesser Strengthen Body.
Inherent Modifiers: None.
Greater Effects: 0 (×1).

Causes the target to become slightly shinier for 1 minute.

This Casting: Lesser Strengthen Body (3) + Duration 1 Minute (1) + Extra Energy, +140 (141) + Range, 20 yards (6).150 Energy.


To automatically dispel any Lesser Strengthen Body effect on a person that costs less than 150 Energy without an opposed Path check?

I think it would require a roll whether or not it's intended to dispel the other effect.

3. Could you use a cheap Create Greater Crossroads to make a weak spot that does not go anywhere, just so you can use a Lesser Control Crossroads and Lesser Transform Crossroads to make it go far away? Or use Lesser Create Matter to create raw materials and Lesser Transform Matter to make a complex object like a car or aircraft carrier without a creation roll?
For example;

Create Scar
Spell Effects: Create Greater Crossroads
Inherent Modifiers: Duration
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).

This creates a scar in reality, used specifically to allow the caster to create gates or contact other planes easier.

Typical Casting: Create Greater Crossroads (6) + Area of Effect: 2 yards (0) + Duration: 12 hours (6). (12x3) 36 Energy

And then use that weak point to use this;

Create Gate
Spell Effects: Lesser Control Crossroads + Lesser Transform Crossroads
Inherent Modifiers: Range + Area of Effect + Duration
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).

This creates a gate 2yards in radius allowing humans, and their equipment, to pass through. It can connect to an area within 200,000 yards and disperses after 10 minutes.

Typical Casting: Lesser Control Crossroads (5) + Lesser Transform Crossroads (8) + Duration: 10 minutes (1) + Area of Effect: 2 yards (0) + Range: 200,000 yards (28) + Speed: 200,000 yd/s (28). 73 Energy.

I feel like this may be violating the spirit of the rules, though not the letter. It could certainly be problematic to have mages running around tearing rifts in the fabric of reality. There should be some balancing factors included so that the Rift only becomes cost-effective if you set it up as a semi-permanent gateway, rather than as a one-off spell.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

Hello, I have been looking into Ritual Path Magic lately and (as the GM) I have a few questions I can't figure out how to rule on;

Congrats on using one of the most popular magic systems 4th edition has seen thus far. :-)

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

1. “Spells cannot make anyone better at using magic…” (RPM book page 15) what happens if you cast an effect to give someone levels of Mana Enhancer?

High mana levels gives a lot of different bonuses, but one the biggest is the boon to casting a spell or having spells cast on you. So, under the above rule, should I disallow Mana Enhancer from being granted through RPM entirely (like Magery and Ritual Adept), limit it to granting all the bonuses higher mana levels have with magic items, but not with living casters, or just have it work normally if granted by a spell?

Yes. You can never use magic on being better at magic. So giving someone Mana Enhancer just won't do. Not only that, Mana Enhancer isn't used with RPM unless using the optional Mana Level rules from GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic (p. 43) or my rules for being a Place of Power (found on p. 11 of Pyramid #3/66: The Laws of Magic) are in effect. In any case, you can't use magic to get better at magic - that's the rule.

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

2. Can you use a spell with high energy to auto-dispel other effects?

I realize this is exploiting a loophole, but could you use this spell;

Shine Body
Spell Effects: Lesser Strengthen Body.
Inherent Modifiers: None.
Greater Effects: 0 (×1).

Causes the target to become slightly shinier for 1 minute.

This Casting: Lesser Strengthen Body (3) + Duration 1 Minute (1) + Extra Energy, +140 (141) + Range, 20 yards (6).150 Energy.


To automatically dispel any Lesser Strengthen Body effect on a person that costs less than 150 Energy without an opposed Path check?

Not a loophole - you could do that. It's how stacking spells works GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic (p. 15). Bigger rituals knockout smaller ones - even if you don't want it to.

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

3. Could you use a cheap Create Greater Crossroads to make a weak spot that does not go anywhere, just so you can use a Lesser Control Crossroads and Lesser Transform Crossroads to make it go far away? Or use Lesser Create Matter to create raw materials and Lesser Transform Matter to make a complex object like a car or aircraft carrier without a creation roll?

I'm not sure what you are trying to ask, but it seems like for the Crossroads example you're trying to create a momentary (that means a Duration with a Energy of +0) gate. This is usually used to allow something from another world to cross over into ours. If you wanted to make a weak spot and then create a Gate I don't see why not - but you'd need to cast the spell immediately afterward you made the weak spot (so maybe a charm or conditional ritual). As for complex objects - regardless of where the material comes from if it's a manufactured good it needs to have a roll to create it. It says as much on p. 16 of GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic.

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

4. I am also looking into pricing of RPM made permanent magic items in a market. I plan to have magic items cost (CP^2)*(.01*Starting Wealth) so;

CP cost of item      TL3 - $1,000    TL8 - $20,000     % of starting wealth
5                      $250              $5,000                25%
10                     $1,000            $20,000               100%
20                     $4,000            $80,000               400%
30                     $9,000            $180,000              900%
50                     $25,000           $500,000              2,500%
80                     $64,000           $1,280,000            6,400%
100                    $100,000          $2,000,000            10,000%

Does this seem fair as the base price?

If any of these have been discussed elsewhere on the forums a link to the thread would be appreciated.

I explicitly created my Metatronic Generators article as a back-door for permanent RPM items. See here for how to do that (I didn't have enough room to come right out and see it in the article itself).

[Bramble Thorn]

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

1. “Spells cannot make anyone better at using magic…” (RPM book page 15) what happens if you cast an effect to give someone levels of Mana Enhancer?

An interesting thing to note is that what this rule refers to is that Ritual Path Magic cannot make you better at performing Ritual Path Magic.

But if you cast a RPM spell on a person to give him a Innate attack (or other power), that power can have a power modifier (like magic) So you could make someone better at magic in that they could now throw flaming balls of eldritch fire at will when previously they could not. (Until the spell that granted them the ability expired or was dispelled)

If the same spell or another spell gave them (Non-RMP) Magery or increased their Dexterity, that would also make them better at throwing those Fireballs.

And if this ability had a Fatigue cost, then a RPM created Mana Enhancer that increased the Mana Level to Very High would allow them to throw a fireball within it and recover the Fatigue the next round.

Because all of this is a product of RPM, but is not actually RPM itself.

This would be an example of making the tools to make the tools, and would be interesting to see in a campaign, explaining how there might be more than one type on magic in a given world, with RPM as the source ur-magic, and Mana magic as a created lesser magic.

[Lia Valenth]

So, in summery,
1. Mana Enhancer- just do not allow it.
2. Using larger spells to knock out smaller ones just shifts the defense from the opposed Path check to the targets resistance.
3. This works for gates. However,

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

As for complex objects - regardless of where the material comes from if it's a manufactured good it needs to have a roll to create it. It says as much on p. 16 of GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic.

But on p. 16, under why Transform costs more than Create, "In addition, Transform effects that produce manufactured goods do not require the craft roll described under Create(above) if the original item was sufficiently similar". It seems like using Lesser Create Matter to make a simple gun-shaped metal block and Lesser Transform Matter to make that into a real gun would be right in theme, especially as that is so close to the example given, "but using it to turn a toy pistol into a real one would not (need a roll)".

Of course where you get bullets is still a question in that example, but not directly related.

As for 4. I am planning to just use the Slow and Sure Enchanting (RPM p. 34-35) and put a price on it.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

So, in summery,
1. Mana Enhancer- just do not allow it.
2. Using larger spells to knock out smaller ones just shifts the defense from the opposed Path check to the targets resistance.
3. This works for gates. However,


But on p. 16, under why Transform costs more than Create, "In addition, Transform effects that produce manufactured goods do not require the craft roll described under Create(above) if the original item was sufficiently similar". It seems like using Lesser Create Matter to make a simple gun-shaped metal block and Lesser Transform Matter to make that into a real gun would be right in theme, especially as that is so close to the example given, "but using it to turn a toy pistol into a real one would not (need a roll)".

Of course where you get bullets is still a question in that example, but not directly related.

Right, but that's a Transform effect. I suppose you could say "I'm shaping this lump of clay into something like a gun and then Transform it - but as a GM I'd still require you to make a skill roll of some type to make it functional. The exception of course would be objects that already look like what you are trying to turn them into, like that toy pistol. Of course, if you as a GM decide that you don't need to roll a skill to create something then you don't. Awesome. Tell us how it works out for you. But by RAW - you should be allowed to violate the rules by doing some clever accounting - unless your GM says otherwise anyways.

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

As for 4. I am planning to just use the Slow and Sure Enchanting (RPM p. 34-35) and put a price on it.

The rules I presented use the Slow and Sure Enchanting method - you just get the framework for them already in place. You know how much it costs, what it weighs, and so on.

[Lia Valenth]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

The rules I presented use the Slow and Sure Enchanting method - you just get the framework for them already in place. You know how much it costs, what it weighs, and so on.

Mk, I do not have Pyramid #3/46: Weird Science, and at the moment if I were to buy a book it would have to be the new How to Be a GURPS GM, so I will have to put that on the to-get list when I has more to spend.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Lia Valenth

Mk, I do not have Pyramid #3/46: Weird Science, and at the moment if I were to buy a book it would have to be the new How to Be a GURPS GM, so I will have to put that on the to-get list when I has more to spend.

Mook's book is quite good. :-) If you want magical items to be more permenant and plentiful, I suggest making each point cost the same as about half of what it costs for Spending Points for Money (usually 10% of starting wealth, so 20% of Starting Wealth) and then going from there. If you want less plentiful items make each point equivelent to 10% or even 5%. Adjust the scale from there. For something like DF or D&D where there are a ton of magical googads maybe make each point the item costs worth 5% or even 1% - of course, going that low you might end up with items cheaper than charms (depending on skill level at least). I'd probably go something like 2.5% myself for somewhere where everyone has a +1 ring of protection or the like. That's a 40-point magical item for a a full multiple of your starting wealth

[Kalzazz]

I really like the idea of a 10 point item costing more than two 5 point ones, so I would avoid using the Signature Gear / Trading Points for cash route of CP conversion

I would potentially go some variant of it off 1 use wealth maybe

So, if

2 points gets 1x extra starting wealth (1000 at 3e)
4 for 4000
6 for 19000
10 for 99000
15 for 990000 etc

So, say, a 5 point charm would retail for between 4000 and 19000 at TL 3, Id go with averaging the two for something thats in between perhaps

Modify by a percentage or whatnot to taste

[Lia Valenth]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Right, but that's a Transform effect. I suppose you could say "I'm shaping this lump of clay into something like a gun and then Transform it - but as a GM I'd still require you to make a skill roll of some type to make it functional. The exception of course would be objects that already look like what you are trying to turn them into, like that toy pistol...

I went back and reread the book, and your right it would need a craft check, this is my mistake. I am going to rule that, for the example if you want a Luxury Car at TL 8 ($30,000), you can either use;

Greater Create Matter followed by an Engineering (automobile)-8 check to make it correctly
Or
Lesser Create Matter followed by an Engineer (automobile) -4 (create a metal chunk with rubber wheels that looks like a car) and then a Lesser Transform Matter with no check to turn it into a car.

The first one requires a single casting with a high energy cost and a very difficult Engineering check, while the second one requires two prepared spells, but has an easier check and much lower energy cost for both spells.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I really like the idea of a 10 point item costing more than two 5 point ones, so I would avoid using the Signature Gear / Trading Points for cash route of CP conversion

As do I, a linear $X for Y CP has always been a problem IMO because I do not see five 10 point traits as being worth the same as a single 50 point trait most of the time.

I do like (CP^2)*(% of starting wealth) as it is easy, every time you double the CP of the item you quadruple the price. Just have to choose that % of starting wealth. I decided to go with a more complicated option after what Ghostdancer pointed out, I want 1-5pt items to common, 10-20pt to be uncommon, 50pt ones to be rare and 100+pt ones to be Legendary.