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Old 11-11-2014, 10:00 AM   #11
Kromm
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

Ingenuity is nice, but others reading the thread might not be GMs or players whose GM is amenable to "These Extra Arms aren't really arms but merely a cheap way to buy Extra Attack!" ;) I think that a trait in the vein of Gunslinger and Heroic Archer is what's needed here. Let's call this Throwing Master [20] to underline that it's in the same family but isn't the same trait. I'd give it these benefits:
  • You may learn the Throwing Art skill (which you'll generally use for all attacks with thrown weapons, though this isn't mandatory).
  • You may ignore off-handedness penalties when throwing weapons. This has no effect when wielding those same weapons off-handed in melee combat.
  • When you Attack or All-Out Attack with a thrown weapon, you may add its Accuracy bonus to skill without taking an Aim maneuver. If you do Aim, you get +1 after one second or +2 after two or more seconds, in addition to Acc.
  • When you Attack or All-Out Attack in close combat, or Move and Attack anywhere, you don't add Acc but you may ignore Bulk.
  • Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
  • When you Attack, All-Out Attack, or Move and Attack, you can throw multiple weapons, all of them at -3 per attack past the first; e.g., two attacks at -3, three at -6, four at -9, and so on. These can target different opponents.
  • If you throw using two hands, all attacks start at a basic -2, but the above penalty accrues separately for each hand; e.g., three attacks with one hand at -8, two with the other at -5. One attack with each hand is at -2 instead of -3. Again, these attacks can target different opponents.
  • You can combine Throwing Master with any Weapon Master specialty that covers thrown weapons. The damage bonus doesn't "stack" with that of Throwing Art, but you get all of the other benefits above – and the penalty for multiple attacks becomes just -1 per attack past the first and a basic -1 for using two hands (e.g., three attacks with one hand at -3, two with the other at -2).
  • If for whatever reason you elect to use Rapid Fire with Thrown Weapons (Martial Arts, p. 120) instead of multiple attacks, you can ready whatever you're throwing instantly instead of taking a Ready, if you have a suitable Fast-Draw skill (this always requires a roll!), and you may ignore Bulk.
This is mostly of value for small throwing weapons you can carry by the score and use Fast-Draw on. I'd be very strict about what weapons do and don't work with Fast-Draw. That said, if you want to be generous, consider that carrying 20 throwing axes means lugging around 80 lbs. of weapons and throwing away up to $1,200 of gear. It's somewhat self-limiting. :)
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Old 11-11-2014, 10:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
  • Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
I would say instead
  • Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you still have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at effective level of 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
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Old 11-11-2014, 10:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

I would so want to buy a Dwarven Whetstone and spend hours touching up my five thousand shurikens while in town
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Old 11-11-2014, 10:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
I would say instead
  • Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you still have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at effective level of 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
If you like. However, as the real benefit of this trait is lots of attacks, that's limited by lots of ready weapons, and thus the rate-limiter is Fast-Draw, I think that condition would devalue the advantage. It would also result in a lot of what I consider to be "nuisance rolls." In most campaigns, purchasing a 20-point advantage, buying up a DX/Hard skill, and ensuring you have a DX/Easy skill at 16+ is a fair price for being able to throw away your weapons really quickly via a string of attacks that come with built-in penalties. Adding nuisance rolls is probably going to make this not worth the points.
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Old 11-11-2014, 10:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

The GM needs to fight the urge to make this trick too hard in genres where it's appropriate. Remember that just about all weapons that can be fast-drawn and thrown are small, low-damage ones. They all cost and most weigh more than, say, arrows. And the GM is under no obligation to say the weapons are recoverable. So while it may seem iffy to let someone hurl 20 shuriken per turn using both hands with high skill, that's only going to be "overpowered" when it's a strong ninja (both to carry the things and make them hurt) with good gear vs. a swarm of low-DR mooks . . . which is pretty much bang-on how cinematic ninja work. When it's some DF character engaging high-DR monsters who don't bleed, it's almost not worth the trouble, and the same points could be spent on far more abuse.
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Old 11-11-2014, 10:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
If you like. However, as the real benefit of this trait is lots of attacks, that's limited by lots of ready weapons, and thus the rate-limiter is Fast-Draw, I think that condition would devalue the advantage. It would also result in a lot of what I consider to be "nuisance rolls." In most campaigns, purchasing a 20-point advantage, buying up a DX/Hard skill, and ensuring you have a DX/Easy skill at 16+ is a fair price for being able to throw away your weapons really quickly via a string of attacks that come with built-in penalties. Adding nuisance rolls is probably going to make this not worth the points.
Were the difference to me is while I have no problem bundling in the perk No nuance rolls (Fast-draw) plus an ability to reduce the penalties to make it easer to do more that some who doesn't have it.

But i don't like making penalties so mean less that the might as well not exist and have No limit at all on how many items you can face draw and long as you base skill on and easy skill is 16 (forget + because it will not happen then)

But rather let the penalties levels set the level at which the roll is a nuance (effective 16+) hence get rid but still all them to push themselves further but stacking on more penalties and having to either roll or get better at the skill.

Edit:
I'm even up for it including an +3 to fast draw that stacks with combat reflexes on top of halving the penalties if you think the "normal" count of how many draw with the trait is too low. It's the fact the penalties are meaningless and the is no limit just for having a very to reach base skill level.
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Last edited by roguebfl; 11-11-2014 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 11-11-2014, 10:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

I would consider using the 'Did arrows survive?' rules from DF Wilderness Adventures, and add absolute value of half of bulk (round up) to increase their chances of survival/recoverability, since seems to me that it should be harder to misplace a harpoon than a shuriken


Cheap likely should impose a penalty on the survival check though. Since Cheap throwies are quite popular (its not like you want to parry with them!)
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Old 11-11-2014, 11:54 AM   #18
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
So while it may seem iffy to let someone hurl 20 shuriken per turn using both hands with high skill,
Dex 14, Combat Reflexes and 2 points in Fast Draw to get to base skill 16. and you can not old fas draw 20 of them with no roll but 300 of them with no roll at something I beaery would call "high skill"

basically it makes the"and half penalties" part meaningless because anyone who's build is ever thinking of buying this are already at base skill 16 fast draw and will never ever use it.
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Old 11-11-2014, 12:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

You're missing the direction of the arrow. I'm really saying "Fast-Draw at 16+ is a prerequisite for this advantage" – I'm acknowledging that no serious user will actually need the halved penalties clause. However, as Gunslinger, Heroic Archer, Trained by a Master, and Weapon Master (and indeed Gadgeteer and lots of other cinematic advantages) do not have skill prerequisites, it's more consistent to leave that off. Which means that there has to be some kind of handling for low or no Fast-Draw skill.

My advantage definition aims to solve two problems:
  1. Reduce the penalties for lots of ranged attacks to the point where it's a viable option to throw lots of weapons.
  2. Halve the amount of dice-rolling by removing nuisance rolls that may well make lots of attacks impossible if failed.
It improves game flow to do it this way, which I deem critical for the sorts of games that feature cinematic ninja and the like. If you prefer, change:
Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you still have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at effective level of 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
to:
You automatically succeed at Fast-Draw rolls for throwing weapons.
And add:
Prerequisite: Fast-Draw (any thrown weapon) at 16+.
That could be 18+, 20+, or whatever if you prefer. But not rolling is simply better than rolling lots at complicated penalties.
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Old 11-11-2014, 12:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Ingenuity is nice, but others reading the thread might not be GMs or players whose GM is amenable to "These Extra Arms aren't really arms but merely a cheap way to buy Extra Attack!" ;) I think that a trait in the vein of Gunslinger and Heroic Archer is what's needed here. Let's call this Throwing Master [20] to underline that it's in the same family but isn't the same trait. I'd give it these benefits:
  • You may learn the Throwing Art skill (which you'll generally use for all attacks with thrown weapons, though this isn't mandatory).
  • You may ignore off-handedness penalties when throwing weapons. This has no effect when wielding those same weapons off-handed in melee combat.
  • When you Attack or All-Out Attack with a thrown weapon, you may add its Accuracy bonus to skill without taking an Aim maneuver. If you do Aim, you get +1 after one second or +2 after two or more seconds, in addition to Acc.
  • When you Attack or All-Out Attack in close combat, or Move and Attack anywhere, you don't add Acc but you may ignore Bulk.
  • Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
  • When you Attack, All-Out Attack, or Move and Attack, you can throw multiple weapons, all of them at -3 per attack past the first; e.g., two attacks at -3, three at -6, four at -9, and so on. These can target different opponents.
  • If you throw using two hands, all attacks start at a basic -2, but the above penalty accrues separately for each hand; e.g., three attacks with one hand at -8, two with the other at -5. One attack with each hand is at -2 instead of -3. Again, these attacks can target different opponents.
  • You can combine Throwing Master with any Weapon Master specialty that covers thrown weapons. The damage bonus doesn't "stack" with that of Throwing Art, but you get all of the other benefits above – and the penalty for multiple attacks becomes just -1 per attack past the first and a basic -1 for using two hands (e.g., three attacks with one hand at -3, two with the other at -2).
  • If for whatever reason you elect to use Rapid Fire with Thrown Weapons (Martial Arts, p. 120) instead of multiple attacks, you can ready whatever you're throwing instantly instead of taking a Ready, if you have a suitable Fast-Draw skill (this always requires a roll!), and you may ignore Bulk.
This is mostly of value for small throwing weapons you can carry by the score and use Fast-Draw on. I'd be very strict about what weapons do and don't work with Fast-Draw. That said, if you want to be generous, consider that carrying 20 throwing axes means lugging around 80 lbs. of weapons and throwing away up to $1,200 of gear. It's somewhat self-limiting. :)
Thanks for the write-up! I had wondered what Throwing Master would look like.

As far as the Extra Arms went, I thought this discussion was more or less over so I didn't post anything, but I did come to the conclusion that an Extra Arm is like a much cheaper Extra Attack, as long as you've got enough weapons to put in all your arms, so maybe that idea was looking exploitative. Extra Attack (Single Skill: Throwing Art) is 20 points, so if adding another arm is similar to that, then maybe "Only during my turn" is a +100% enhancement on Extra Arm that prevents me from walking around looking like some kind of Hindu god gone wrong.
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