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09-17-2017, 03:28 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Sep 2017
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What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
So, I've heard GURPS:Magic is very poorly balanced, so I took it for a ride and found that it is, indeed, very bad at balance.
I like balanced things. I'm going to GM a DF table soon, and I need to decide on a Magic system for it. Would you guys say that RPM is a better one? If so, is there a list of "ready to use" rituals? Official, unofficial, I don't care, I just want it to be balanced - with itself and with sword/bow combat. No need to be perfectly balanced, of course, as that is pretty much impossible, but at least a tolerable level of balance. Suggestions, please? EDIT: This came up on page three, but I'm slotting in the OP for better visiblity: My take on a conversion of D&D Next rules for save-or-die spells to GURPS 4th Standard Magic System, would love suggestions, specially since I'm not very knowledgeable in GURPS: These rules only apply to Spells that include effects that restrain or otherwise handicap the target:
Additionally, I'm trying to convert the Legendary Resistance trait from D&D Next to GURPS. Legendary Resistance Last edited by Set; 09-18-2017 at 02:47 AM. |
09-17-2017, 03:54 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
Magic is cheap compared to the other and that's where the accusations of it being unbalanced (mostly) come from. It's got some other problems, but mainly in spells that shouldn't be allowed.
Magic balances this by having things blow up in the caster's face every so often. Keep in mind that if you don't use Magic wizards aren't going to be as capable as they would otherwise be, which causes problems. The genre for DF assumes that wizards know LOTS of spells and can get them off relatively quickly. |
09-17-2017, 05:01 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
My problem is mainly with spells that basically win fights, such as Panic.
4 energy cost. Target fails: 60 turns unable to do anything but run or defend itself. But maybe there are more overpowered spells, I've seen many complaints. |
09-17-2017, 07:35 AM | #4 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Single monster fights rarely work out well for the monster; the action economy works against it, and GURPS is particularly punishing for being surrounded. There's obviously a few one-hit KO kinda spells kicking around, but the genre is not known for duels.
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09-17-2017, 07:56 AM | #5 | |||
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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He's a knight, mundane knight. He's the boss, crazy strong, and fast. But he's not particularly strong against magic. He's a knight, after all. Wizard casts Panic, he fails. Boss encounter is practically over, since the boss is out. Save or die spells aren't fun, period. They are frustrating when the players get targeted by them, and anti-climatic when the players cast them. However, spells such as Panic should exist, they are a staple to the genre. I'd like to know if there is any system designed to GURPS that implements those spells in a balanced way. Quote:
A balanced standard system would most likely be the thing that I'd most enjoy, but if that takes too much work to do, maybe using Sorcery would be better, since it appears that the consensus in indeed that it's the most balanced system. Is there any expanded official or unofficial Sorcery grimoire? Last edited by Set; 09-17-2017 at 08:03 AM. |
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09-17-2017, 12:36 PM | #6 |
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Poland
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
If save or die spells in general are what you dislike (and not just cheap save or die spells), no system will really solve the problem: using Sorcery, you can build an Affliction-based save or die spell. If you aren't afraid of lots of tweaking, you might want to look into Pyramid #3/83, which has an article on applying Technical Grappling rules to possessions -- with some work, it might let you change any supernatural effect from save-or-die to a longer struggle. Be wary, though, it's just a random idea -- I haven't tried to use it that way. It might be clunky or just too much work.
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09-20-2017, 10:49 PM | #7 | ||
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Rio de Janeiro, where it was cyberpunk before it was cool.
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Unfazeable, fearlessnes, resistance to mental effects, buying up willpower, all contribute to a healthy life for your NPCs. Besides, panic is not cheap. Under the right circunstances, mundane spells can be deadly and deadly spells can be useless. Imho its more intuitive, to achive your goals, to give the PCs and NPCs some sort of extra life like effect, where after suffering a 'save or die' spell such as panic, merely wastes their daily charge of amazingness. Last edited by D10; 09-20-2017 at 11:05 PM. |
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09-21-2017, 06:43 AM | #8 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Say Flesh to Stone slowly turns them into stone in stages. Each stage could have it's own save, maybe progressively worsening. Stage 1 gives them a DX penalty say 1/5 of their DX (rounddown) and lasts 5 seconds; Stage 2 a further DX pen (another 1/5), gives DR 2, lasts 5 seconds, Stage 3 gives the final DX pen (up to 3/5 DX pen now), Slowed (one level of Decreased Time Rate), and a Perception penalty of... eh.. -4 (?)*; Stage 4 is just five more seconds of all that suck and a last Resistance cause if the enemy ain't dead by now they will be by Stage 5. Stage 5, enemy is a statue and will remain so indefinitely until the spell is broken. Quote:
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But after a few rounds of this the Theurge noticed those symbols were blackening, some like the "purity seals" were catching fire and falling off! So he shouted to his team to try to knock off those remaining symbols (the warriors were doing jack squat for damage and they knew it) and sure enough, every seal or icon removed weakened the Chaos Knight until a final save-or-die spell managed to get through and end it (though honestly by then the warriors were landing telling blows and the Chaos Knight was reeling and about to flee). The icons each granted him some "permanent" Unholy boost (+5 to ST, +5 HP, +5 DX, etc), while each 'impurity seal' was a Bless. He had like 10 seals I think. Maybe 15. I didn't go "overboard', but it was meant to be a "slog' of a fight that the Chaos Knight was to gradually grow "weaker" as he lost seals and the PCs managed to bust icons off his armor. I think he lasted 10 rounds before it was obvious he was going down and he started to retreat. And then got hit with a Flesh to Ice from the Warlock and it was over. Last edited by evileeyore; 09-21-2017 at 06:48 AM. |
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09-21-2017, 04:53 PM | #9 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
This is being said by a gamer who has purchased SOME of the DF products, not the boxed set, and has never really wanted to run a DF style campaign due to the high point values of the characters...
My experience with GURPS MAGIC over the years since 1990 onwards points to the following observations. Any accusation of "lack of balance" has to be taken into account with the original environment that GURPS MAGIC (first edition) came into being for. GURPS 3e had characters built on 100 points, not 400. Energy for spell casting was not an abundant resource. Magery was limited to level 3, which consequently kept most skill levels down to manageable levels. Why? You either specialized in a very few spells and put a lot of character points into the few spells you had, or you put a lot of points into a lot of spells, and never really got a high skill level in the spells. Dungeon Fantasy changed that to some extent. Characters are now built on 400+ points. Magery can now exceed level 3 - which in turn, blows through the built in limiting factor of "do I spend points on Magery 3 and lose 10 spells, or do I spend points on magery 2 and forego the pleasure of spells that require magery 3, and get an extra 10 spells I'd otherwise not be able to get". Then there is the issue of spell casting range penalties etc. A mage casting a spell against a target 5 hexes away, in a low mana region, is at -10 to spell casting skill. If he had a skill 15, that is a major blow to his ability to cast spells. In a normal spell environment, skill 15 less 5 for range, drops the skill to 10. If you're casting a spell that can be resisted (ie has a saving throw), skill 10 versus say, a HT 12, is difficult to successfully cast in a single attempt. Spells that take 3 seconds to cast, grant the other non-spell casting target some three free actions before the spell even has a chance of being completed, let alone being cast, let alone overwhelming the resistance of the defender. So, if the issue is of play balance? Fine. I think that Mages using GURPS MAGIC as written, have a tough enough time as it is. Magic has NEVER overwhelmed a campaign I've ever GM'd for one simple reason... No matter how big the Player Characters get as fish, there is always going to be a bigger fish. Case in point? Set in Sanctuary (yes, the BOOK series Sanctuary), one player who ran a high point mage, assassinated both Molin Torchholder and Prince Kitty Kat (Kadathis?) in a single attack. The Wizard's guild, fearful of the Emperor's wrath, undertook a plan to hunt down the PC mage, and take him down. They created a "Drain Mana" pebble, that when cast forcefully at the floor, would trigger the spell "Drain Mana" for a 1/4 mile radius. The player character mage, no longer able to count on his magic items, his spell casting ability, and had to move to get out of range of the no mana region - found himself unable to defend against the squad of crossbowmen who gunned him down like a dog in the streets. The player was TORQUED off that he lost his character, but I told him simply "if you were the leader of the Mage's guild, what would you have done to preserve the right to cast spells?" He had to admit, that it wasn't as over the top as it felt, and then took pride that it took a concentrated Guild effort to nail his hide to the wall. In the end? Each GM runs his or her game as they see fit, but to say that the "save or die" spells ruin the game for you, suggests to me that until you've watched your players play within the environment as written, and watch them struggle with both the successes and failures - you won't really know how it will play out. final point and I'll bring this to a close... My wife started playing GURPS - having never experienced a Role playing game up to that point. I told her "if you can picture doing it, GURPS can handle it". She, having experienced fencing both foil and saber up to that point in time, could imagine a LOT thankyouverymuch. She never cracked open a book to learn the game system until GURPS MAGIC, where she got bit by the "Mage bug" - the creativity required to play the mage well as it were. Then she was introduced to D&D for the first time (the white binders version, 2nd edition I think). She HATED it because once she reached third level, none of the zero level fighters or first level fighters could defeat her character. To this day, she has never forgotten her Fighter with a skill 26 in Broadsword (VERY special build based on Red Sonja). She went up against a skill 18 fighter, and being cocky, gave him first attack rights. He went against her sword arm for his attack, and got a crit success. She had a temporarily crippled arm, and was INCENSED at the lucky hit. So, she challenged him to an immediate rematch, using her off hand (skill now reduced to 22). She attacked, he parried, and counter attacked. She rolled a crit failure on her defense roll, and because, like the first time, he went for the weapon arm, ended up crippling temporarily, her left arm as well. Two one second duels, both decided against her - from an inferior foe. THAT is what she loved about GURPS. As others have been saying, give the original rules a run, and use it without modification. See how it plays rather than how it "tests". Give your players the deciding vote rather than your own view of the system. Sometimes, things develop far sweeter than you might otherwise imagine. And if they complain? Ask yourself "how often did they crow when the dice went their way, and if they complain now, is it because the dice went against them, or is it because the system is truly unfair or unbalanced. Don't take this as a dig against you, or anything of that nature, take it for what it is worth. Give the system a chance to work as written. Take notes, then make changes to the system after running it a few times. This is advice from someone who is known to create house rules without fear, but it is also from someone who has used GURPS since 1986. Ye Gads, do I feel old all of the sudden. :( |
09-21-2017, 10:49 PM | #10 | ||
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?
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Your reply was very detailed and entertaining to read. I'd be laughing so hard if I was present at the moment of the two lost duels. You see: I rarely, rarely, create house-rules and even less so use other people's house-rules without being absolutely sure it's from a very acclaimed source and that it was praised by 90%+ of the people who used it.That's not true for mods for virtual RPGS, tho haha. 60 is the bare minimum to play Skyrim. However, I am very proficient at creating them. I don't do that very often, but when I do, it's good, because I've studied game design, probability, and have been building and combo'ing things since I was 10 - when I was 12, my monk's Asura in Ragnarok Online hit exactly how much it had to hit to kill any non-tank class, the rest I had in speed and defenses. Then I had a second set of gear to hit exactly the necessary to kill the tanks. I don't do this kind of munchkinism in tabletop RPG, because it's not a competitive game. But this means I have a deep understanding of how game systems interact with each other. I don't think spells in GURPS are OP, at all. I just think that save-or-die are. Maybe they're not really that strong, but they're broken - they're either completely useless, or completely fatal, there's no middle term. All or nothing is something I truly dislike in our everyday virtual combats. Giving enemies MR don't fix that, they nerf all spells and make the save-or-die tend more to useless than fatal. Creating trinkets for the enemies to specifically counter save-or-die spells don't fix that - they just make the spells useless. If I wanted to have them disabled, I could simply ban them. Giving everyone points to spend to counter that basically does that as well, just in a less radical way. Playing against the players absolutely don't fix that - be it by dropping anti-mages everywhere or dropping enemy mages with the save-or-die spells. You see, my problem doesn't lie with players using them, it lies with anyone using them. Still, I want them to exist in my world. I just want them to be on par with other spells and with the rest of the system as a whole. But I do appreciate seeing other points of view, even if I don't agree with them. Seeing from other perspectives allow us to enhance and temper our own.
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. .Realistic Trademark Move using official rules to snuff out guards everywhere: The guide to throat slitting (or sentry removal, for the gentleman.) Last edited by Set; 09-21-2017 at 10:53 PM. |
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