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Old 09-17-2017, 03:28 AM   #1
Set
 
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Default What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

So, I've heard GURPS:Magic is very poorly balanced, so I took it for a ride and found that it is, indeed, very bad at balance.

I like balanced things.


I'm going to GM a DF table soon, and I need to decide on a Magic system for it.
Would you guys say that RPM is a better one?

If so, is there a list of "ready to use" rituals? Official, unofficial, I don't care, I just want it to be balanced - with itself and with sword/bow combat. No need to be perfectly balanced, of course, as that is pretty much impossible, but at least a tolerable level of balance.

Suggestions, please?

EDIT: This came up on page three, but I'm slotting in the OP for better visiblity:

My take on a conversion of D&D Next rules for save-or-die spells to GURPS 4th Standard Magic System, would love suggestions, specially since I'm not very knowledgeable in GURPS:

These rules only apply to Spells that include effects that restrain or otherwise handicap the target:
  • Spells that apply a penalty to the subject's rolls, such as Clumsiness or Hinder (Magic, p. 36) are not affected at all by any of those rules.
  • For spells that severely handicaps the target, but still allow him to decide his actions, such as Slow (Magic, p. 145):
    • The target can re-roll his part of the Quick Contest at the end of each of his turns. If he succeeds, he is not affected by the spell anymore.
    • Reduce the spell cost by 1/3 (round down).
    • Ignore -1 penalty flat (not per yard) due to Range on Regular Spells and Area Spells.
  • For spells that locks down the subject, either by forcing it to take the Do Nothing maneuver (i.e. Tickle, Magic, p.36) or by severely restricting its actions (i.e. Panic, Magic, p.134):
    • As above, but the target gets a cumulative +1 to her rolls, starting at the end of her first turn after being affected by the spell.
    • Reduce the spell cost by 1/2 (round up).
    • Ignore -1 penalty flat (not per yard) due to Range on Regular and Area Spells.


Additionally, I'm trying to convert the Legendary Resistance trait from D&D Next to GURPS.
Legendary Resistance
+3PR/Level (Up to 3)
This is an Advantage only available to NPCs that, alone, can be a worthy or greater challenge to the party. It allows the user to automatically win a lost Quick Contest against effects that could have restrained it, magic or otherwise. If such result could mean negative effects for the combatant trying to apply it, instead nothing, negative or positive, happens to anyone. Costs are still paid as usual. 1 use per day per level.

Last edited by Set; 09-18-2017 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 09-17-2017, 03:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Magic is cheap compared to the other and that's where the accusations of it being unbalanced (mostly) come from. It's got some other problems, but mainly in spells that shouldn't be allowed.

Magic balances this by having things blow up in the caster's face every so often. Keep in mind that if you don't use Magic wizards aren't going to be as capable as they would otherwise be, which causes problems. The genre for DF assumes that wizards know LOTS of spells and can get them off relatively quickly.
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

My problem is mainly with spells that basically win fights, such as Panic.
4 energy cost. Target fails: 60 turns unable to do anything but run or defend itself.

But maybe there are more overpowered spells, I've seen many complaints.
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
My problem is mainly with spells that basically win fights, such as Panic.
4 energy cost. Target fails: 60 turns unable to do anything but run or defend itself.

But maybe there are more overpowered spells, I've seen many complaints.
4 energy cost, ONE enemy WITH A MIND panics (animals are IIRC out of scope for Mind Control by nonDruids, and there's certainly plenty of other things). My ground expectation is as many critters as PCs, but up to two or three times is not out of the question, and sometimes there's a horde of 50.

Single monster fights rarely work out well for the monster; the action economy works against it, and GURPS is particularly punishing for being surrounded.

There's obviously a few one-hit KO kinda spells kicking around, but the genre is not known for duels.
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

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Originally Posted by Gnomasz View Post
What system is "best" is highly subjective: Magic is very good for "hackers" who like to search for new ways to "exploit" the game system. Edit: including Game Masters, who like to look for countermeasures to specific threats during the campaign.

If you like RPM, DF 19: Incantation Magic is a ready-made alternative suited specifically for DF. Keep in mind, though, that it has had spawned some discussion of balance. IIRC, mostly focused on high damage output of Incantation Magic.

I think the general consensus for balance is to build magic on advantages. You might do it with the Basic Set alone or look into Powers: Divine Favor and Thaumatology: Sorcery for abilities-based systems with a twist for Clerics and Wizards, respectively.
Incantation does sound decent, indeed. Is there an expanded grimoire somewhere? And/or rules to make the damage weaker?




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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
4 energy cost, ONE enemy WITH A MIND panics (animals are IIRC out of scope for Mind Control by nonDruids, and there's certainly plenty of other things). My ground expectation is as many critters as PCs, but up to two or three times is not out of the question, and sometimes there's a horde of 50.

Single monster fights rarely work out well for the monster; the action economy works against it, and GURPS is particularly punishing for being surrounded.

There's obviously a few one-hit KO kinda spells kicking around, but the genre is not known for duels.
Problem isn't really duels, it's being so strong against a target independent of his skills. Say the boss encounter is a veteran very evil knight, and 3 thugs.
He's a knight, mundane knight. He's the boss, crazy strong, and fast. But he's not particularly strong against magic. He's a knight, after all.
Wizard casts Panic, he fails. Boss encounter is practically over, since the boss is out.

Save or die spells aren't fun, period. They are frustrating when the players get targeted by them, and anti-climatic when the players cast them.

However, spells such as Panic should exist, they are a staple to the genre.

I'd like to know if there is any system designed to GURPS that implements those spells in a balanced way.


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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I would say that Incantations are not better balanced than Standard Magic: the spellcaster pays a fairly modest upfront cost and gets a lot of flexibility and fairly powerful effects. But if you decide to use RPM, DF: Incantations adapts RPM for Dungeon Fantasy and has a decent list of rituals in it.

I'm using Sorcery in my current game, derived from DF, and it feels a lot more balanced than RPM or Standard Magic. Sorcerers are also a lot weaker than standard wizards or incanters: where a standard wizard will have 30+ spells of varying power and generally 10-20 of significant utility, and an incanter might have 15-20 useful charms available at any time plus the ability to cast just about anything given enough time, a sorcerer is going to have 3-6 mildly useful spells and an unreliable ability to improvise some other mildly useful spells. As the GM, you may feel Sorcery is better balanced, but your wizard players may object to the decrease in power.
Although Incantation is nice, and I do like the basic premise of the standard Magic system (more than any other, so far) - they both seem very hard to balance.

A balanced standard system would most likely be the thing that I'd most enjoy, but if that takes too much work to do, maybe using Sorcery would be better, since it appears that the consensus in indeed that it's the most balanced system.

Is there any expanded official or unofficial Sorcery grimoire?

Last edited by Set; 09-17-2017 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 09-17-2017, 12:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

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Originally Posted by Set View Post
Save or die spells aren't fun, period. They are frustrating when the players get targeted by them, and anti-climatic when the players cast them.
If save or die spells in general are what you dislike (and not just cheap save or die spells), no system will really solve the problem: using Sorcery, you can build an Affliction-based save or die spell. If you aren't afraid of lots of tweaking, you might want to look into Pyramid #3/83, which has an article on applying Technical Grappling rules to possessions -- with some work, it might let you change any supernatural effect from save-or-die to a longer struggle. Be wary, though, it's just a random idea -- I haven't tried to use it that way. It might be clunky or just too much work.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
My problem is mainly with spells that basically win fights, such as Panic.
4 energy cost. Target fails: 60 turns unable to do anything but run or defend itself.

But maybe there are more overpowered spells, I've seen many complaints.
Bravery makes a whole group immune for hours on end, ill admit tho, mind is my 1st school of choice for combat.

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Originally Posted by Set View Post
It isn't really the same, as the Feint needs a good roll to be actually good, and even then, he would have to make it a Deceptive Attack otherwise the enemy would have a very good chance of defending him/herself. Also, a Fighter needs to be way stronger and more specialized than the Wizard to pull this off.

Also, it isn't really guaranteed to be a fight-ender, whereas the magic effects last like 1 minute, which is 60 turns.
Altho there are very powerfull magic spells, such as panic, mass daze, etc. You can always roll badly, just like in the case of feint, allowing for easy resistance. Rule of 16 and all.

Unfazeable, fearlessnes, resistance to mental effects, buying up willpower, all contribute to a healthy life for your NPCs. Besides, panic is not cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Set View Post
Really good insight on world-building. Thanks. About the rest of the reply: I see your point, truly. The problem I have with that way of handling this is what I've stated before: I don't want to hit all the spells in the same way; I want to hit save-or-die only.
Under the right circunstances, mundane spells can be deadly and deadly spells can be useless. Imho its more intuitive, to achive your goals, to give the PCs and NPCs some sort of extra life like effect, where after suffering a 'save or die' spell such as panic, merely wastes their daily charge of amazingness.

Last edited by D10; 09-20-2017 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

Quote:
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Still, my main problem stays: If I give everyone MR and other defenses, they'll be defending better against every spell, not just the ones I think are problematic.
Well, you don't give it to everyone. Just the guys who need it... but I think you are better served modifying each SoD into an SoS (save-or-die to save-or-suck).

Say Flesh to Stone slowly turns them into stone in stages. Each stage could have it's own save, maybe progressively worsening. Stage 1 gives them a DX penalty say 1/5 of their DX (rounddown) and lasts 5 seconds; Stage 2 a further DX pen (another 1/5), gives DR 2, lasts 5 seconds, Stage 3 gives the final DX pen (up to 3/5 DX pen now), Slowed (one level of Decreased Time Rate), and a Perception penalty of... eh.. -4 (?)*; Stage 4 is just five more seconds of all that suck and a last Resistance cause if the enemy ain't dead by now they will be by Stage 5. Stage 5, enemy is a statue and will remain so indefinitely until the spell is broken.

Quote:
Really good insight on world-building. Thanks. About the rest of the reply: I see your point, truly. The problem I have with that way of handling this is what I've stated before: I don't want to hit all the spells in the same way; I want to hit save-or-die only.
They could just get limited Resistance items. Headband of Clear thoughts to help resist Mind Control, Amulet of Physical Constancy to help resist body control spells, lesser trinkets that target more specific ills like Purity Seal of Bravery (bonuses to Fearlessness), etc.




Quote:
Originally Posted by D10 View Post
Imho its more intuitive, to achive your goals, to give the PCs and NPCs some sort of extra life like effect, where after suffering a 'save or die' spell such as panic, merely wastes their daily charge of amazingness.
What I did once was to have the Big Bad roll out all decked to the gills in the iconography of his vile demon-god. Small holy symbols on his armor, his chest just decked out in 'purity seals', totes Warhammered out. As the Theurgist and Warlock in the party hit him with [save-or-die] spells he laughed them off!

But after a few rounds of this the Theurge noticed those symbols were blackening, some like the "purity seals" were catching fire and falling off! So he shouted to his team to try to knock off those remaining symbols (the warriors were doing jack squat for damage and they knew it) and sure enough, every seal or icon removed weakened the Chaos Knight until a final save-or-die spell managed to get through and end it (though honestly by then the warriors were landing telling blows and the Chaos Knight was reeling and about to flee).

The icons each granted him some "permanent" Unholy boost (+5 to ST, +5 HP, +5 DX, etc), while each 'impurity seal' was a Bless. He had like 10 seals I think. Maybe 15. I didn't go "overboard', but it was meant to be a "slog' of a fight that the Chaos Knight was to gradually grow "weaker" as he lost seals and the PCs managed to bust icons off his armor.

I think he lasted 10 rounds before it was obvious he was going down and he started to retreat. And then got hit with a Flesh to Ice from the Warlock and it was over.

Last edited by evileeyore; 09-21-2017 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

This is being said by a gamer who has purchased SOME of the DF products, not the boxed set, and has never really wanted to run a DF style campaign due to the high point values of the characters...

My experience with GURPS MAGIC over the years since 1990 onwards points to the following observations.

Any accusation of "lack of balance" has to be taken into account with the original environment that GURPS MAGIC (first edition) came into being for. GURPS 3e had characters built on 100 points, not 400. Energy for spell casting was not an abundant resource. Magery was limited to level 3, which consequently kept most skill levels down to manageable levels. Why? You either specialized in a very few spells and put a lot of character points into the few spells you had, or you put a lot of points into a lot of spells, and never really got a high skill level in the spells.

Dungeon Fantasy changed that to some extent. Characters are now built on 400+ points. Magery can now exceed level 3 - which in turn, blows through the built in limiting factor of "do I spend points on Magery 3 and lose 10 spells, or do I spend points on magery 2 and forego the pleasure of spells that require magery 3, and get an extra 10 spells I'd otherwise not be able to get".

Then there is the issue of spell casting range penalties etc. A mage casting a spell against a target 5 hexes away, in a low mana region, is at -10 to spell casting skill. If he had a skill 15, that is a major blow to his ability to cast spells. In a normal spell environment, skill 15 less 5 for range, drops the skill to 10. If you're casting a spell that can be resisted (ie has a saving throw), skill 10 versus say, a HT 12, is difficult to successfully cast in a single attempt. Spells that take 3 seconds to cast, grant the other non-spell casting target some three free actions before the spell even has a chance of being completed, let alone being cast, let alone overwhelming the resistance of the defender.

So, if the issue is of play balance? Fine. I think that Mages using GURPS MAGIC as written, have a tough enough time as it is. Magic has NEVER overwhelmed a campaign I've ever GM'd for one simple reason...

No matter how big the Player Characters get as fish, there is always going to be a bigger fish.

Case in point? Set in Sanctuary (yes, the BOOK series Sanctuary), one player who ran a high point mage, assassinated both Molin Torchholder and Prince Kitty Kat (Kadathis?) in a single attack. The Wizard's guild, fearful of the Emperor's wrath, undertook a plan to hunt down the PC mage, and take him down. They created a "Drain Mana" pebble, that when cast forcefully at the floor, would trigger the spell "Drain Mana" for a 1/4 mile radius. The player character mage, no longer able to count on his magic items, his spell casting ability, and had to move to get out of range of the no mana region - found himself unable to defend against the squad of crossbowmen who gunned him down like a dog in the streets. The player was TORQUED off that he lost his character, but I told him simply "if you were the leader of the Mage's guild, what would you have done to preserve the right to cast spells?" He had to admit, that it wasn't as over the top as it felt, and then took pride that it took a concentrated Guild effort to nail his hide to the wall.

In the end? Each GM runs his or her game as they see fit, but to say that the "save or die" spells ruin the game for you, suggests to me that until you've watched your players play within the environment as written, and watch them struggle with both the successes and failures - you won't really know how it will play out.

final point and I'll bring this to a close...

My wife started playing GURPS - having never experienced a Role playing game up to that point. I told her "if you can picture doing it, GURPS can handle it". She, having experienced fencing both foil and saber up to that point in time, could imagine a LOT thankyouverymuch. She never cracked open a book to learn the game system until GURPS MAGIC, where she got bit by the "Mage bug" - the creativity required to play the mage well as it were. Then she was introduced to D&D for the first time (the white binders version, 2nd edition I think). She HATED it because once she reached third level, none of the zero level fighters or first level fighters could defeat her character. To this day, she has never forgotten her Fighter with a skill 26 in Broadsword (VERY special build based on Red Sonja). She went up against a skill 18 fighter, and being cocky, gave him first attack rights. He went against her sword arm for his attack, and got a crit success. She had a temporarily crippled arm, and was INCENSED at the lucky hit. So, she challenged him to an immediate rematch, using her off hand (skill now reduced to 22). She attacked, he parried, and counter attacked. She rolled a crit failure on her defense roll, and because, like the first time, he went for the weapon arm, ended up crippling temporarily, her left arm as well. Two one second duels, both decided against her - from an inferior foe.

THAT is what she loved about GURPS.

As others have been saying, give the original rules a run, and use it without modification. See how it plays rather than how it "tests". Give your players the deciding vote rather than your own view of the system. Sometimes, things develop far sweeter than you might otherwise imagine. And if they complain? Ask yourself "how often did they crow when the dice went their way, and if they complain now, is it because the dice went against them, or is it because the system is truly unfair or unbalanced.

Don't take this as a dig against you, or anything of that nature, take it for what it is worth. Give the system a chance to work as written. Take notes, then make changes to the system after running it a few times. This is advice from someone who is known to create house rules without fear, but it is also from someone who has used GURPS since 1986. Ye Gads, do I feel old all of the sudden. :(
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: What is the best Magic system to use in a DF campaign?

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Well, you don't give it to everyone. Just the guys who need it... but I think you are better served modifying each SoD into an SoS (save-or-die to save-or-suck).

Say Flesh to Stone slowly turns them into stone in stages. Each stage could have it's own save, maybe progressively worsening. Stage 1 gives them a DX penalty say 1/5 of their DX (rounddown) and lasts 5 seconds; Stage 2 a further DX pen (another 1/5), gives DR 2, lasts 5 seconds, Stage 3 gives the final DX pen (up to 3/5 DX pen now), Slowed (one level of Decreased Time Rate), and a Perception penalty of... eh.. -4 (?)*; Stage 4 is just five more seconds of all that suck and a last Resistance cause if the enemy ain't dead by now they will be by Stage 5. Stage 5, enemy is a statue and will remain so indefinitely until the spell is broken.
Yes, that's more or less how I plan on modifying Flesh to Stone. Maybe I'll make it in a version that the target's extremities start to turn first. Giving 5 fails to die and 1 to save would probably make it nigh impossible to turn someone, though, maybe a better approach would be that the first save has a penalty. Then, each save after that either advances or retreats a stage, but then I'd have to create some mechanism so that it doesn't go on forever.

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Don't take this as a dig against you, or anything of that nature, take it for what it is worth. Give the system a chance to work as written. Take notes, then make changes to the system after running it a few times. This is advice from someone who is known to create house rules without fear, but it is also from someone who has used GURPS since 1986. Ye Gads, do I feel old all of the sudden. :(
I never see things as personal, no worries!

Your reply was very detailed and entertaining to read. I'd be laughing so hard if I was present at the moment of the two lost duels.

You see: I rarely, rarely, create house-rules and even less so use other people's house-rules without being absolutely sure it's from a very acclaimed source and that it was praised by 90%+ of the people who used it.That's not true for mods for virtual RPGS, tho haha. 60 is the bare minimum to play Skyrim.

However, I am very proficient at creating them. I don't do that very often, but when I do, it's good, because I've studied game design, probability, and have been building and combo'ing things since I was 10 - when I was 12, my monk's Asura in Ragnarok Online hit exactly how much it had to hit to kill any non-tank class, the rest I had in speed and defenses. Then I had a second set of gear to hit exactly the necessary to kill the tanks. I don't do this kind of munchkinism in tabletop RPG, because it's not a competitive game. But this means I have a deep understanding of how game systems interact with each other.

I don't think spells in GURPS are OP, at all. I just think that save-or-die are. Maybe they're not really that strong, but they're broken - they're either completely useless, or completely fatal, there's no middle term. All or nothing is something I truly dislike in our everyday virtual combats.
Giving enemies MR don't fix that, they nerf all spells and make the save-or-die tend more to useless than fatal.
Creating trinkets for the enemies to specifically counter save-or-die spells don't fix that - they just make the spells useless. If I wanted to have them disabled, I could simply ban them. Giving everyone points to spend to counter that basically does that as well, just in a less radical way.
Playing against the players absolutely don't fix that - be it by dropping anti-mages everywhere or dropping enemy mages with the save-or-die spells. You see, my problem doesn't lie with players using them, it lies with anyone using them.

Still, I want them to exist in my world. I just want them to be on par with other spells and with the rest of the system as a whole.

But I do appreciate seeing other points of view, even if I don't agree with them. Seeing from other perspectives allow us to enhance and temper our own.
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