Why does Bastard Sword have a U in parry in 1 hand?

[GodBeastX]

I'm trying to understand the U in the parry for Bastard Sword. U being unbalanced, but broadsword skill specifically saying it's for balanced weapons. Atop that, I'm trying to figure out what's unbalanced about a Bastard Sword? If it's a matter of it's weight, wouldn't high enough ST then make that U vanish? I noticed Longsword didn't have the same issue.

Is this another "Shortsword vs Long Knife" situation where it was made U, but to correct it "Longsword" was added?

[Plane]

B271 lists OU for both the Bastard Sword and the Thrusting Bastard Sword when used with "Broadsword", but but B274 lists them as Parry 0 when used with the Two-Handed Sword skill.

So basically it's a 2-handed sword (balanced when you use 2 hands) but becomes unbalanced when you wield it using the inappropriate Broadsword skill intended for 1H swords.

The 1H "broad" use also has a highter ST requirement and less damage.

[Sorenant]

Bastard Sword is longer than Longsword (1,2/2 vs 1/1,2) and as I understand it's a primary two-handed weapon that can be used with one hand in a pinch, unlike Longsword that is meant to be more versatile.
It's part of a gradient: Broadsword > Longsword> Bastard Sword > Greatsword.

As for its utility, when used two-handed it has similar damage as that of a Greatsword but it's cheaper, lighter and requires less ST to use. The lesser damage is also made up by being much easier to use one-handed than a greatsword, which is useful in some situations (eg one arm is crippled or used on horseback).

Regardings U notation, that's something that bothers me too. It's there to represent unwildly weapons but there's also ‡ notation that overlaps with it. Besides, as you said ‡ can be overcame with high ST but not U. So if Superman were to use an U weapon he would have difficulty moving from attack to defense using this weapon, which feels weird.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

Maybe there wouldn;'t have been a problem if the Sword had not come from a broken home ...

(Obligatory "Bastard Sword" Joke delivered ... now hiding ...)

[Bruno]

U not being impacted by ST is usually explained by a difference in the grip used to attack vs the grip used to defend, but that's not applicable in the case of one-handed swords.

That makes its use here on the Bastard Sword even more odd.

[DanHoward]

IIRC it is an artefact from the original version of GURPS. Low-Tech created the Longsword listing to present a more realistic version of this type of weapon.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Bastard Sword is longer than Longsword (1,2/2 vs 1/1,2) and as I understand it's a primary two-handed weapon that can be used with one hand in a pinch, unlike Longsword that is meant to be more versatile.
It's part of a gradient: Broadsword > Longsword> Bastard Sword > Greatsword.

Which made sense when the gradient was set up back in the 1980s. However thanks to channels like Shadiversity we now know that gradient is wrong

As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which made sense when the gradient was set up back in the 1980s. However thanks to channels like Shadiversity we now know that gradient is wrong

As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.

In terms of the thread question it won't just be a matter of overall length in abstract, but also weight and balance (IIRC the bastard sword in LT is heavier then the long-sword, and is more designed towards cutting with more Sw damage)

Or put it another way if the abstract bastard sword is 2lb heavier than the long sword even if the long sword is 3" longer, that extra length won't mean that much in this context, especially if the point of balance it closer to the hands with a long sword (2lbs and 3" just figure used for illustration)


Although as you point out at the end some long swords got pretty long, and such examples likely won't appear in the broadsword skill table in LT!

Also while I admit I haven't watched those videos (no sound at work) unless it has some caveats I'd be really surprised if someone's discovered the true hard and fast historical categories for bastard sword and long sword.

Honestly what a bastard sword and what long sword where, is a mess, the differentiation historically not just being about the physical objects, but the linguistic history* of the terms themselves, not to mention drift in both over a period of time of several centuries (just ask the poor old 'claymore').


Those in history who used these things had the advantage of not worrying about how the weapon in their hand(s) would be distinguished in weapons table in RPGs or in youtube videos in the C21st!



*for instance I believe the term "bastard sword" was more a specifically English thing

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which made sense when the gradient was set up back in the 1980s. However thanks to channels like Shadiversity we now know that gradient is wrong

As Shad shows a Bastard Sword (ie the 1 and a half handed sword) is actually shorter then the true Longsword (which is a two handed weapon) If that isn't enough fun there are longswords that are the same size as Great swords.

There are also longswords whose blade lengths are the same as other arming swords which is a more correct term than broadsword.

The biggest issue is that swords are not really categorized correctly nor is it possible to get a good system in place. If you want by blade length then you end up with arming swords being labeled as longswords and the reverse as well. Go by design and now you got langmessers and messers and grossmessers which are all technically knives that just so happens to be as long as a sword.

For me a bastard sword in gurps terms is a sword meant more for cutting then thrusting, look up the Duke or the count longsword from Albion armory. A longsword in gurps is one meant more for thrusting, think talhoffer or fiore.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

There are also longswords whose blade lengths are the same as other arming swords which is a more correct term than broadsword.

The biggest issue is that swords are not really categorized correctly nor is it possible to get a good system in place. If you want by blade length then you end up with arming swords being labeled as longswords and the reverse as well. Go by design and now you got langmessers and messers and grossmessers which are all technically knives that just so happens to be as long as a sword.

For me a bastard sword in gurps terms is a sword meant more for cutting then thrusting, look up the Duke or the count longsword from Albion armory. A longsword in gurps is one meant more for thrusting, think talhoffer or fiore.

Yep exactly.

In some ways the historical use of these terms is kind of moot, especially as we're tying all this to GURPS stats (even more so as the LT descriptions acknowledge the were was a range within each one).

So a long sword is a sword that has GURPS long sword stats, a Bastard sword is one that has bastard sword stats. Weather or not all examples of both were all called long swords or bastard swords, or even if some in the later group were called long swords (and vice versa)

I've seen a 6lb 5-1/2ft "long sword" on display, just because that particular sword was known as a "long sword" doesn't mean I'm going to give it the long sword stats in LT.