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Old 01-22-2015, 09:25 AM   #1
Onkl
 
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Default Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

Hi guys

To answer my own question: Apparently, Space Marines do!

I have a problem with the survivability of melee-weapons based fighters in a world which also features high damage ranged weapons. My current headache is with a Warhammer 40'000 campaign where the PCs take on the roles of Space Marines. The PCs start out at 700 CP, they are extremely beefy warriors with high stats, all wearing power armour with 70 DR. Have a look at this post in which I linked a document if you are interested in the templates I used.<link zu pdf post>

So far, I've tried the following rule adaptions for melee-based PCs:
  • Melee Etiquette: Whenever encountering a Boss or a Henchmen type adversary, melee-based characters can challenge them to a one-on-one fight. The fight between the two combatants is to the death but neither PCs or NPCs can interfere once the challenge is accepted. Also, you can only challenge unscathed opponents. So no gang-banging and then one-on-oneing. - this rule is pretty stupid come to think of it.. It suits the lore, sure, but from a pov
  • Acrobatics Galore: All melee-based PCs can use Acrobatic Dodge several times per turn at -1 per attempt after the first.
  • Uncanny Blocking: All melee-based PCs using a shield can use block as an active defense when being shot at, even with lasers.
  • Assault Marines: Assault Marines get special equipment, a Jump Pack, which enables them to close with the enemy fast or get the hell outta dodge (Move 14).
  • Enhanced Dodge: All melee-based PCs get +1 to Dodge, free of charge.
  • All but the most modest of melee weapons have an armor divisor of (3)

Do you have any other ideas on what to do to help my melees survive?

Then there's the problem of scope. Assault Marines often carry a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. Do they get all, some or none of the benefits I mentioned above? Do only 'true' melees get the benefits?

I am mostly interested in hearing about experiences and additional rules exemptions you might have used in your games. And of course what you think of the stuff I did so far.

Cheers

Onkl
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:32 AM   #2
ericthered
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

Other things you can do:

Close quarters: melee weapons work best in quarters close enough that ranged weapons get bulk penalties and engagements start at melee range. (watch for it in action movies -- its really common).

High dodge, no deceptive ranged attack: If enemies (and PC's) have high dodges and you can't do deceptive ranged attacks, Closing to melee range may be the best way to hit ubersoldiers bouncing all over the place.
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:39 AM   #3
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkl View Post
Hi guys

To answer my own question: Apparently, Space Marines do!

I have a problem with the survivability of melee-weapons based fighters in a world which also features high damage ranged weapons. My current headache is with a Warhammer 40'000 campaign where the PCs take on the roles of Space Marines. The PCs start out at 700 CP, they are extremely beefy warriors with high stats, all wearing power armour with 70 DR. Have a look at this post in which I linked a document if you are interested in the templates I used.<link zu pdf post>

So far, I've tried the following rule adaptions for melee-based PCs:
[LIST][*]Melee Etiquette: Whenever encountering a Boss or a Henchmen type adversary, melee-based characters can challenge them to a one-on-one fight. The fight between the two combatants is to the death but neither PCs or NPCs can interfere once the challenge is accepted. Also, you can only challenge unscathed opponents. So no gang-banging and then one-on-oneing. - this rule is pretty stupid come to think of it.. It suits the lore, sure, but from a pov
It is not a stupid rule. Combat by champion is known in many cultures and has had examples as late as the Napoleonic Wars(the most iconic one in US memory was Chesapeake vs Shannon but it was also known for British and French subalterns to challenge one another in Spain). There is no reason inherent in improved military technology for it not to revive. The fact that Westerners don't go in for that much today is a cultural oddity that need not be presumed to be permanent.
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

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Originally Posted by Onkl View Post
]Melee Etiquette: Whenever encountering a Boss or a Henchmen type adversary, melee-based characters can challenge them to a one-on-one fight. The fight between the two combatants is to the death but neither PCs or NPCs can interfere once the challenge is accepted. Also, you can only challenge unscathed opponents. So no gang-banging and then one-on-oneing. - this rule is pretty stupid come to think of it.. It suits the lore, sure, but from a pov
This rule is totally stupid, and the lore is totally stupid, and you should absolutely keep the rule. I'd change the name to "Duel Etiquette," though: the Assault Marine challenging a Tau Shas'O should force the two of them to focus on each other, but not force the Shas'O into disadvantageous melee.

Other than that, give everyone the rule Flesh Wounds, which lets you spend 1 CP to reduce the injury from an attack to 1, but let them pay FP instead of CP against ranged attacks. This makes sense, and it would also be 100% appropriate to the setting for some manner of special ammo to disregard Flesh Wounds (and be rare, of course).

I think it's best to implement special rules that protect the all PCs from ranged attacks rather than giving specific advantages to the melee ones. The Devastator marine with the Heavy Bolter is absolutely going to get more kills on average than the Assault Marine: however, the Assault Marine is going to shine against opponents that close quickly like Ork Bikers, shrug off damage like Necrons, or are hard as hell to hit like Harlequins. Don't make people feel bad for playing the Devastator by giving the Assault Marine free points, make them both feel good by giving them different enemies to annihilate.
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

Can't talk directly to WH40K, but typically speaking in video games with automatic weapons where melee is still of use, there are a few notable advantages to melee.

Accuracy: Firearms require you have the reticule on the target to hit, and many weapons have a decent amount of spread, while just having the target in range and within a wide arc is enough for an auto-hit with a melee attack. GURPS covers this fairly well already. Range penalties can easily give you a low chance to hit, although at high TL's Acc can offset this. Tactical Shooting requires you to use All Out Attack to benefit from Acc, however, so implementing that can help the melee characters. You can also disallow Prediction Shooting (so that Deceptive Attack is a melee-only option). Another option would be to give melee attacks a blanket bonus to hit - +2 could do it.

Power: Melee attacks often do more damage than all but the most powerful of ranged weapons. High armor divisors for melee weapons and low wounding modifiers for ranged ones can accomplish this rather well in GURPS. Alternatively, you can accomplish something similar by having armor give high protection against pi and burn damage and lower protection against all other types.

Stagger: Related to the above, in many First Person Shooters ranged attacks will at best cause a foe to flinch slightly, while a melee strike sends them reeling. Have foes struck in melee suffer a higher shock penalty than those attacked at range to help facilitate this. Knockback can also be useful (due to the chance of the target falling).

Sneak Attack: In games with a sneak attack mechanic, melee strikes are almost invariably more effective than ranged ones. Again, GURPS already has something like this, with Telegraphic Attack. You could also give a blanket damage bonus - say, +1/die - and/or give reduced penalties for Targeted Attacks (and/or only allow the Targeted Attack Technique for melee skills).
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:35 AM   #6
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

From what little experience I have with Warhammer, it seems that melee weapons should have a higher armor divisor than ranged weapons, meaning you're more likely to murder the canned meat with a single attack than with any gun shot. Throw in sneaking up behind somebody so they get no active defense, and melee has a purpose.
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Old 01-22-2015, 12:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

The reason you bring a melee weapon to a gun fight in Warhammer 40k is because the melee weapon does considerably more damage. Knives aren't a great choice even for space marines, but at least in their RPG it can be difficult to damage things with a gun, meaning you need to go over to higher damage melee weapons.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

Yeah, whatever else the modern world is, we are not pragmatic about war. When we fight we are messy, underhanded, wasteful, and rarely settle for anything but unconditional victory. Its definitely a cultural thing: we've seen cultures that fight like that in history, and for many of the same reasons (ancient rome comes to mind). We've also seen cultures that are pragmatic about ending the war before one or the other sides has been turned into dust.

Its also worth recognizing that along with this we have the philosophy that violence is the last resort, so much of the time we use it, the above outlook is valid: if something less than unconditional victory was on the table we would have started with negotiations, not tested (emphasis on test) our strength first.
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Yeah, whatever else the modern world is, we are not pragmatic about war. When we fight we are messy, underhanded, wasteful, and rarely settle for anything but unconditional victory. Its definitely a cultural thing: we've seen cultures that fight like that in history, and for many of the same reasons (ancient rome comes to mind). We've also seen cultures that are pragmatic about ending the war before one or the other sides has been turned into dust.

Its also worth recognizing that along with this we have the philosophy that violence is the last resort, so much of the time we use it, the above outlook is valid: if something less than unconditional victory was on the table we would have started with negotiations, not tested (emphasis on test) our strength first.
Champion duels aren't particularly pragmatic either.

If they're simply a part of a larger battle, it's not clear how they change anything. If they're instead of a larger battle, obviously they save a lot of destruction...but you could save even more by settling the matter with a game of chess instead. And a champion duel isn't any better than a chess showdown for determining who would actually win in a battle.
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Old 01-22-2015, 03:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: Who brings a knife to a gun-fight?

Saying thing that are conditional on "All melee-based characters" like that seems problematic. How do you define a melee-based character? Is the guy with Broadsword [12], Guns (Pistol) [12] who fights with a sword and pistol out most of the time a melee-based character? What about the chap with Guns [24], Broadsword [2] who uses the sword when he runs out of ammo or the one with Broadsword [24], Guns [2] who uses the pistol when he can't manage to close to melee. Giving melee weapons really high Armour Divisor is probably a decent way to go, as well as high movement speeds (which space marines should have anyway) and have enemies with high DR.
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