TDM for ranged attacks, reality check

[David Johnston2]

For target shooting and long distance sniping there's another consideration which is that it's an appropriate situation for attribute substitution if the shooter's IQ is higher.

That being said, the TDM is based on a plethora of real life gun uses which shows that gun-qualified soldiers and cops miss with an amazing number of the bullets they fire in actual combat use. It's possible that GURPS underestimates the accuracy modifier of guns and the reason they miss is because they aren't aiming and hence don't get that modifier. But I don't really care. Not planning to run GURPS: Firing Range.

[DouglasCole]

Interesting...I wonder if one might postulate a few things, each with a separate bonus...if one decided to break it down.

Lack of danger to shooter
Lack of perception of shooting a living target
Precisely known range
Guarantee of target not moving at all
Lack of competitive pressure
Lack of time pressure

Lack of known danger in the situation, or training and/or experience to ignore the danger, sounds a lot like Combat Reflexes. CR is good for a +1 for defense; perhaps not being in danger might be worth up to +2 on TDM

Lack of perception of shooting a living target: If you're not shooting at something that you know you can kill (and this can include animals) this could be worth a bonus. Possibly a decent one; it would have to be a TDM bonus because shooting at a living target is likely the default assumption of an RPG. Got to be equal or less than getting shot at yourself.

Laser rangefinder has been claimed to give +3, with decent justification. However, a laser or reflex SIGHT, which basically says "your point of aim is here," only gives +1. So known range can possibly vary from +1 to +3. I'd honestly be more tempted to give the +1, and allow the TIME to do precision aiming to be reduced by up to three seconds, since you know exactly what the bullet drop will be.

If knowing exactly where the gun is pointed (laser sight) is only worth +1, knowing that the target won't ever move isn't likely worth more. So totally stationary target is either worth nothing or +1.

Lack of time or competitive pressure...well, lack of any sort of "you'd best fire before seconds are up" or any sort of competitive pressure...possibly worth a bonus, but less than "you could get killed," which I'd pegged at +2 above...so call this +1.

To summarize:


Lack of danger to shooter +2
Lack of perception of shooting a living target: +1 or +2
Precisely known range: +1
Guarantee of target not moving at all: +1
Lack of competitive pressure, including time: +1

Total potential TDM as a breakdown: +6 or +7

[sieurin]

While I completely lack the knowledge of real-world gun combat to have anything useful to say about this specific issue, I'd like to notice that "realism" or perhaps "verisimilitude" in games often in the ends boils down to the GM slapping a lot of penalties of player dice rolls and worrying that he/she/it is making it too easy for the players. However, it is just as "realistic" to notice that some things can be much easier in reality. After all, most commuters don't fail their Driving rolls, and when they do failure is much more likely to mean being late for work or dinner than ending up in a ditch or running over a pedestrian.

I might note that many other skills seem to mostly notice penalties for various stressful circumstances in their specific descriptions, which gives the general impression, even if it is wrong, that rolls vs Surgery or Area Knowledge or whatever during everyday stressless circumstances is unmodified skill - while it might be just the opposite.

Erik

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sieurin

I might note that many other skills seem to mostly notice penalties for various stressful circumstances in their specific descriptions, which gives the general impression, even if it is wrong, that rolls vs Surgery or Area Knowledge or whatever during everyday stressless circumstances is unmodified skill - while it might be just the opposite.

Very true. I suspect that many GMs fail to notice that GURPS assumes that rolls vs basic skill are made in 'adventuring situations' and that many every-day rolls should be made at a significant TDM bonus.

[Langy]

Wait a moment - the "Eye for Distance" perk gets you the +3 to Acc bonus for a rangefinder? That seems a bit powerful for a perk. Are y'all sure that's right?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Langy

Wait a moment - the "Eye for Distance" perk gets you the +3 to Acc bonus for a rangefinder? That seems a bit powerful for a perk. Are y'all sure that's right?

I agree...recall that a laser sight, which puts a dot on your target that at reasonably close range, says "you hit here," is only +1.

[Langy]

True, but that's +1 to skill, not +1 to Acc. There is a pretty big difference between the two.

I'd probably be willing to give 'you get +1 to Acc, not comuluative with *insert thing that gives bonus to Acc here*' as a Perk, but I think by the RAW it's actually 3 points per +1 to Acc (Telescopic Vision's -60% limitation if it doesn't increase Acc seems to indicate that, anyways).

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Langy

True, but that's +1 to skill, not +1 to Acc. There is a pretty big difference between the two.

I'd probably be willing to give 'you get +1 to Acc, not comuluative with *insert thing that gives bonus to Acc here*' as a Perk, but I think by the RAW it's actually 3 points per +1 to Acc (Telescopic Vision's -60% limitation if it doesn't increase Acc seems to indicate that, anyways).

True, and also a difference in a RangeFinder perk giving, for example, +3 to cancel out Range penalties, but not bonuses to Skill or Acc. If that's the Perk, there's much less issue with it.

[Langy]

True, but that's not what a Laser Rangefinder is described as doing - it simply gives +3 Acc, straight up, instead of canceling Range penalties.

(that said, I'd be very happy with a perk that can cancel -3 in range penalties in any Aimed shot for my sniper character;))

[Edges]

So far, I'm considering adding some house rules largely based on Suedodeus' suggestions (and others).

Additional range modifiers:
+1 for no wind
+1 for high contrast visual target (orange jumpsuit, ideal lighting, etc.)
Up to +3 for known range (cannot exceed acc.)
Up to +4 for no stress

I'd like to see it come out to +10 total for aesthetics. No wind is a little problematic for things like lasers and combat in a vacuum. But it's a start. The precise range component would turn the Range finder Perk (or whatever it's called) into a more expensive advantage (IIRC, the Perk specifically says that it doesn't effect combat). How much? How about 5 points? Assume it requires an extra second of Aim per +1 (which can be bought off using the Takes Less Time enhancement). I guess that if you hit, you could keep this bonus until the target moves.

The stress mod is more complex. I like the idea of calling for a Will check and awarding up to +4 based on margin of success. Maybe success gives +1 and every 3 beyond that gives another for a max of +4 at success by 10. The key to this would be in the Will roll modifiers. Maybe a -4 if you don't have CR. Maybe a +4 if you are Unfazeable. Maybe +2 for Higher Purpose (if applicable) and/or Daredevil. Maybe +1/lv level of Fearlessness and -1/lv for Fearfulness. Coward could give double the fright check penalty. Maybe -5 if the attacker has used a FP in the last 5min, has engaged in combat during the last 5min (unless he's made a Will-5 at the end of combat to recover), and/or has failed a fright check in the last 5min. A successful Autohypnosis roll (with the required period of concentration) could give its usual bonus. You could also get an advantage to boost this. But maybe simple Fearlessness is the advantage. Just some ideas.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't think that's a missing +7 to begin with. Precision Aiming makes it a +5

Oh. I didn't think Precision Aiming was available for all ranged weapon skills. Is it?