Clerical Investment vs. Religious Rank

[Black Leviathan]

The first example that came to mind was a Cult leader, definitely had rank over his congregants but outside of the Brotherhood of Tomorrow nobody cared who he was and didn't recognize the marriages he performed. There are a lot of religious non-religions like this where you have control of people because of faith but no recognized authority in society. The New Age Movement was pretty much all about this.

When I ported Dogs in the Vineyard to GURPS I gave the Dogs religious rank but explicitly didn't give them Clerical Investment. They weren't officiants, couldn't perform services for the church, but they had authority over Wards and Pilgrims of the faith. When they talked, Mormons listened.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by dcarson

The Queen sort of has reverse Courtesy Rank. In theory they have the power to do things but if they actually tried to use that power it would be removed by Parliament. So they use their ability to dissolve Parliament only when they are told to by Parliament. Making it the same price as normal CR seems reasonable though.

As to that sort of thing, I would give her just Status, not Rank of any kind.

On the other hand, she does have Courtesy Rank, per the RAW. Currently, the Queen still is Colonel-in-Chief of the Grenadier Guards, even though it's been a while since she rode out for the trooping of the colour.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

The first example that came to mind was a Cult leader, definitely had rank over his congregants but outside of the Brotherhood of Tomorrow nobody cared who he was and didn't recognize the marriages he performed. There are a lot of religious non-religions like this where you have control of people because of faith but no recognized authority in society. The New Age Movement was pretty much all about this.

So it seems you are talking about organizations that have little or no social influence, and membership in them doesn't provide special access to useful resources. Therefore, being Chief Ritualist in such an organization does not bestow upon you any Rank at all (p. B29). It's probably simply a matter of Reputation within a small group. Also, many cult leaders rely on Charisma and on the ruthless use of various skills.

If OTOH you want a reaction bonus from everybody for being a religious figure in a religion that, however, is not organized and not recognized by society at large, simply choose Social Regard (Respected). It takes a certain kind of society, probably: a civilization in which religious figures of any kind are generally approved of and respected, even when they are not clerics of well-known and established religions. People will not acknowledge the marriages you perform, but they will generally grant polite deference to you, for being a generic servant of some god, albeit not familiar to them.
Note: not true for many places in actual history, but sometimes it happens, and it certainly could in your fantasy setting.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Michele

So it seems you are talking about organizations that have little or no social influence, and membership in them doesn't provide special access to useful resources. Therefore, being Chief Ritualist in such an organization does not bestow upon you any Rank at all (p. B29).

I assumed they were using the more advanced rules found in Social Engineering: Pulling Rank, which are much more open-ended than the Basic Set about what Status covers.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

I assumed they were using the more advanced rules found in Social Engineering: Pulling Rank, which are much more open-ended than the Basic Set about what Status covers.

Ah, OK. In that case, you can have a watered-down Rank costing 1 or 2 points/level, which gives you much less than the Basic straight 5/level Advantage. And you can probably tailor it to the cult leader's particular position. Seems fair.

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Michele

So it seems you are talking about organizations that have little or no social influence, and membership in them doesn't provide special access to useful resources.

I don't think we see it quite the same way. There are very steep differences in power between the cult leader and their lieutenants and their 140 wives. Those people would literally die for you. That's an extreme validation of Religious Rank. But for any religion, Clerical Investment requires validation from the world at large. Any minority view religion requires society to buy-in to have Clerical Investment. I'd argue that in most game settings Bhuddist Monks wouldn't have Clerical Investment because their spiritual franchise wouldn't be respected by enough of the game world for it to make a difference for the character.

Maybe a better example is a faith from my current fantasy game. I have a cult that worships The Queen of Crows, she's a death god from a pre-human culture. Now that humans have colonized the lands and brought new better Gods, The Queen of Crows is still worshiped because none of the human gods have an afterlife so her niche is unique. She doesn't really have temples, just creepy gardens full of markers. There's no money or power. Her priests don't even have a written text, just hand-me-down traditions and even without the trappings of the big temple regions they aren't into ruling over others so Religious Rank isn't applicable to them. However their ritual is significant because people who think their loved ones live on in the eternal gardens shouldn't be challenged, sanctified graves aren't disturbed, society will make time for these people to dig a grave and hold their rituals, so there is Clerical Investment.

I do agree where Clerical Investment isn't a good fit for a religious leader, Social Regard -respected does make sense as a reflection of how your community views someone who is devout to their faith even when they don't understand it.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

I don't think we see it quite the same way. There are very steep differences in power between the cult leader and their lieutenants and their 140 wives. Those people would literally die for you. That's an extreme validation of Religious Rank.

My take, not just in this case but whenever looking for the game mechanics for a real or fictional thing, is that I look at what the thing does, and see what GURPS Advantage description - as opposed to the Advantage's name - fits best.

Sure, the social situation you describe may be couched in religious terms, but it could perfectly well be a non-religious extreme personality cult. This removes the need of the definition "Religious", frankly.
And while having 100 persons ready to die for me is definitely an advantage, this still does not fit well with the RAW description of Rank [5/level]. So I'd start looking for some other GURPS Advantage that seemed to fit the situation better - for instance, Ally Group (Minion), with the followers having Fanaticism (Extreme), plus a very high Reputation within that small group.

[Phantasm]

In some cases it may very well be Rank in that they're people you can order around to do certain things, but not the full 5/level Rank. GURPS Social Engineering has guidelines for reducing the cost of Rank based on various factors. Both a modern-day Corporate Rank and an Criminal Organization Rank can be roughly 2 or 3 per level instead of the normal 5/level, and this may also suit a Religious Rank for smaller religions and sects that are not considered "official" religions (for example: a Buddhist monastery compared to a "Jedi Enclave"; the former is an official religion in most areas, the latter is not - even in areas where a sizable number of folks put "Jedi" down as their religion on their census forms).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

In some cases it may very well be Rank in that they're people you can order around to do certain things, but not the full 5/level Rank. GURPS Social Engineering has guidelines for reducing the cost of Rank based on various factors. Both a modern-day Corporate Rank and an Criminal Organization Rank can be roughly 2 or 3 per level instead of the normal 5/level, and this may also suit a Religious Rank for smaller religions and sects that are not considered "official" religions (for example: a Buddhist monastery compared to a "Jedi Enclave"; the former is an official religion in most areas, the latter is not - even in areas where a sizable number of folks put "Jedi" down as their religion on their census forms).

Of course, that also boils down to the scope of the campaign. Normally, Religious Rank in the Catholic Church would be worth more than Religious Rank in a cult, but if one were running a campaign like Farcry 5, this would be reversed, as the Catholic Church has no influence in the cut-off Hope County, while the Project at Eden's Gate cult has quite a great deal (that is, Pastor Jeffries would probably have more points in Religious Rank than someone like Faith Seed if the scope of the campaign were the United States as a whole, but Faith Seed certainly has more points in Religious Rank than Pastor Jeffries when the scope of the campaign is limited to Hope County).

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

In some cases it may very well be Rank in that they're people you can order around to do certain things, but not the full 5/level Rank. GURPS Social Engineering has guidelines for reducing the cost of Rank based on various factors. Both a modern-day Corporate Rank and an Criminal Organization Rank can be roughly 2 or 3 per level instead of the normal 5/level, and this may also suit a Religious Rank for smaller religions and sects that are not considered "official" religions...

Yes, that's acknowledged upthread, see post #36.