Clerical Investment vs. Religious Rank

[Donny Brook]

Wiki article on cardinals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardin...pened%20before.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by RyanW

In Catholic orders, an abbess or prioress would have Religious Rank but not Clerical Investment (since women cannot be ordained).

For that matter, an abbot, too, could be a layman up until 1078 (synod of Poitiers) in France. Such abbots would have no less religious authority than a bishop, including over laypersons and, yes, priests within their abbey's lands.

Such a medieval lay abbot would still need to have Disciplines of Faith (Monasticism), Duty and Vow at my table - if he took his religious role seriously. Many of them did not, they were just noblemen not at all interested in spiritual life, but very much interested in the lands and other sources of income that came with the abbeys. And that's why the French synod of Poitiers put an end to that, not without attempts to interfere by those who would be damaged by such a decision.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Gef

Is Clercal Investment (CI) a prerequisite for Religious Rank (RR)? Are there real-world examples where non-invested hierarchs command priests?

The benefits of CI are a reaction bonus and the right to perform rites. If a guy with RR can command priests, then he can at least get the rites performed.

That leaves the matter of reaction bonus. Under what circumstances would priests command respect if they're known to work for guys who don't deserve that respect?

Thanks. Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but my search yielded nothing.

Redshirt types (janitors, security guards, whatever)

Secular bureaucrats dealing with the assets of the Church organization.

Secular teachers in an in-house school.

Youth group leaders

"distinguished People"

Gossipy Old Ladies (actually this and possibly the one before are more status).

It might depend on what a given religion defines as clerical. For instance maybe only a Priest is permitted to conduct ceremony, only a monk of a certain seniority to interpret the holy books. Whatever. But the interface with secular matters is handled by lay brethren.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Redshirt types (janitors, security guards, whatever)

Secular bureaucrats dealing with the assets of the Church organization.

Secular teachers in an in-house school.

Youth group leaders

"distinguished People"

Gossipy Old Ladies (actually this and possibly the one before are more status).

It might depend on what a given religion defines as clerical. For instance maybe only a Priest is permitted to conduct ceremony, only a monk of a certain seniority to interpret the holy books. Whatever. But the interface with secular matters is handled by lay brethren.

For an experiment

Layfolk 0-1

Temple flunkies 1-2

Bureaucrats 3-5

priests, teachers, monks, judges, assorted people wearing vestments, 6-7

local bishop or equiv 8

High Priest, Pope, Whatever, Somewhere above that. There might not be a High priest as such. For instance Islam has not had a Caliph after 1919, Judaiism has not had a High Priest for thousands of years, Sikh's last Guru is the holy writings and the Pope is technically viceroy to the High Priest who is theoretically Christ.


Modify for reputation, status, etc. For instance a desert hermit might command more respect in certain circles than a Patriarch. That's not the same as Religious Rank but can't be left out of account.

At the lower level temporary rank may be a feature. Deacons or the like may be elected, chosen by lot, deputized by the Parish Priest, etc.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

For an experiment

Layfolk 0-1

Temple flunkies 1-2

Bureaucrats 3-5

priests, teachers, monks, judges, assorted people wearing vestments, 6-7

local bishop or equiv 8
......

At the lower level temporary rank may be a feature. Deacons or the like may be elected, chosen by lot, deputized by the Parish Priest, etc.

For my interpretation this is not "Religious Rank" just Rank. IE no Clerical Investment needed (and that was really the point of the whole thread).

There is a difference between them, even within the structure of a church.

I considered the question the original poster made to be "Are there examples of an authority that exists outside of a religious hierarchy (lacking Clerical Investment) but can still make demands for religious rights (of someone with Clerical Investment)?"
IE can Non-religious_fellow_01 compel some one with Religious Rank to perform religious rights? I would say it depends on how you are modeling the religion(ious) system

Allow me to try and explain the nuance of the answer using magic, rather than mundane concepts.
In a magic system where Clerical Investment is actually a conduit for an interactive Deity, that rank is based on the worth valued by the Deity. Sure you can compel a priest at sword point to waggle his fingers and say the words, but it doesn't mean that the water is now consecrated. "But why isnt this "holy water" hurting the vampire?!?!?!" (this actually brings up another interesting trope where said Deity isn't actually in control of who benefits from their power because the ritual was properly performed)

The Bishop is more favored than the priest, therefore speaks with more power "of the Deity", at least within the structure of the church. The Bishop can theoretically compel/demand/assign the priest to perform a religious right depending on the religious structure, but the priest can also appeal directly to the Deity (Martin Luther anyone?) if they disagree. At this point its the judgment of the Deity that may or may not want to encourage such behavior and may choose to intervene directly and do some manual Religious Rank adjustments.

A Sheriff has no such authority from the Deity, thus can not... thought he could certainly try to, compel the priest at gun point. "Bless me!!! Right now or I'll kill you!!".... "Ok, ok... meemeeemeeemeeehmmmmmmm. You're blessed, no evil can touch you <definitely gonna work>"

There is a gigantic difference between belief/interaction with "an actual higher power" <Clerical Investment> and just going through a ritual by the numbers as though its a magic slot machine indifferent to your actual beliefs <Magery>. If you don't recognize that (or your setting doesnt) then the entire question is moot. If you do recognize it then you have to see that it would be well nigh impossible to enforce Religious Rank from outside the Deity's own power structure.

If you are trying to model the Catholic church for a gritty realism campaign then you get into a really philosophical place that this is probably not the forum to address. A believer would model that very differently than a non-believer.
Is there actual "Magic" being performed, or is it something else.
Is the magic of belief based in the person, or the person and the ritual, or actual contact to a higher power.
Does the a fore mentioned power get a say in the outcome.
Is the hierarchy of the institution actually based on Clerical Investment, or is it just a group claiming they are special.
Does Clerical investment just equal "buy in" for the institution because there is no actual higher power in play
Is it possible that a person can stumble into TRUE Clerical Investment via an organization that is just mouthing the words and wiggling their fingers the same

** edit to add the last few lines I somehow deleted before posting **

[Kromm]

Well, once magic gets involved, I'll say "that's why we have Power Investiture." It's different from Religious Rank because it's spiritual, not temporal. It differs from Magery because it channels the sacred, not cloudy, dangerous occult energies.

[ericthered]

One very common situation is religious rank 0 without Clerical investment. Its the common state of people learning and studying to become clergy. Another fairly common situation is found in the management of protestant congregations: they will have a council of members with formal positions who don't have the right to perform baptisms/marriages/funerals (but may have some smaller privileges) but have great control over the congregation as a whole, up to and including removing the pastor from his position.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Well, once magic gets involved, I'll say "that's why we have Power Investiture." It's different from Religious Rank because it's spiritual, not temporal. It differs from Magery because it channels the sacred, not cloudy, dangerous occult energies.

That said, if you want to make a hierarchy where authority equals asskicking (like in a certain other game), just make a meta-trait of the two costing 15 points/level. It's pricey, but you get a lot of oomph for it, both temporal and spiritual.

[Kromm]

Ultimately, there are three near-universal channels of "importance" in fantasy faiths:

• Temporally granted administrative authority (Religious Rank without Clerical Investment, which is functionally Administrative Rank), found among clerks, lay clergy, nobles who hold dominion over the religion's holdings, etc.
• Temporally invested spiritual authority (Religious Rank with Clerical Investment), found among ordained clergy, whether or not they can cast spells; these people are very often cloistered, and far from such filthy concerns as land and money.
• Divinely granted power (Power Investiture), found among spellcasters whether or not they are ordained. These might be random stylites and freaks who have had personal revelations, tolerated by the faith because the people admire them.

There might also be more specialized branches. I'm fond of seeing paladins and other holy warriors are being more like inquisitors or whatever, with Legal Enforcement Powers instead of Clerical Investment, and Religious Rank that's functionally Military Rank.

My own bias is toward Diplomatic Immunity and Tenure not defining specific branches. An emissary might be an administrator, celebrant, inquisitor, or even a storied "saint" with no Rank, given special office by a high-Rank official. Any office could be a sinecure, be it lay dean of a university run by the faith, old fossil celebrant nobody can get rid of, or raving soothsayer kept on staff to keep them off the street. A scary high inquisitor would likely have Legal Immunity to get away with literal murder and Tenure to immunize them against being removed by the hierarchy . . . so even the Rank 8 supreme leader kind of has to fear them.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anders

That said, if you want to make a hierarchy where authority equals asskicking (like in a certain other game), just make a meta-trait of the two costing 15 points/level. It's pricey, but you get a lot of oomph for it, both temporal and spiritual.

You could. I don't see it nearly as often as all that, though. Even in That Other Game, there were "cloistered" and regular clerics; the former could hold social authority without extensive supernatural powers or fighting ability, while the latter were good at blasting demons and smashing heads with a mace, but not necessarily socially important. I think that if you're going to go to all the trouble of defining your society's estates in detail, it's more fun to make them complicated and hard to navigate, like real-world ones.