Clerical Investment vs. Religious Rank

[Gef]

Is Clercal Investment (CI) a prerequisite for Religious Rank (RR)? Are there real-world examples where non-invested hierarchs command priests?

The benefits of CI are a reaction bonus and the right to perform rites. If a guy with RR can command priests, then he can at least get the rites performed.

That leaves the matter of reaction bonus. Under what circumstances would priests command respect if they're known to work for guys who don't deserve that respect?

Thanks. Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but my search yielded nothing.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by Gef

Is Clercal Investment (CI) a prerequisite for Religious Rank (RR)? Are there real-world examples where non-invested hierarchs command priests?

The benefits of CI are a reaction bonus and the right to perform rites. If a guy with RR can command priests, then he can at least get the rites performed.

That leaves the matter of reaction bonus. Under what circumstances would priests command respect if they're known to work for guys who don't deserve that respect?

Thanks. Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but my search yielded nothing.

Essentially, this is a very simple question with a very complex answer.

For example, just in the first question, here's one possible sequence, using a theoretical "Church of Blork":
1) Blork has commanded that, effectively, RR shall not exceed CI; but also allowed for "discretionary judgment as needed" otherwise in the Book of Blork.
2) The Church of Blork may have gone heretical to an extent, and promoted certain priests to a RR beyond that of their CI.
3) A schism has resulted, such that:
3a) One-third of the church is at war with the other two thirds, seeking to demote these improperly-promoted clergy.
3b) One-third of the church is at war with the other two thirds, believing that discretionary judgment was properly exercised, and seeking to uphold these properly-promoted clergy.
3c) One-third of the church thinks the other two thirds have gone heretical in not seeking to ask Blork about the issue, and making war on the other two thirds to "bring them into the proper authority of Blork".
3d) Blork is panicking because "What are you doing, guys?!"

Poor Blork.

In short, this is probably best addressed on a per-situation and etc., basis.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Gef

Is Clercal Investment (CI) a prerequisite for Religious Rank (RR)?

In Catholic orders, an abbess or prioress would have Religious Rank but not Clerical Investment (since women cannot be ordained). A priory attached to a larger church is, I believe, typically overseen by a non-ordained prior*. However, it would only have any formal application within their own order, so they would never have a priest under their authority.

* I might be wrong, there. Researching that is frustrating, as the most frequent sited definition of a prior is the superior of a priory, while the definition of a prior is a monastery overseen by a prior.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Gef

Is Clercal Investment (CI) a prerequisite for Religious Rank (RR)? Are there real-world examples where non-invested hierarchs command priests?
.

The King of England. Head of the church but has no religious function.

[bocephus]

Wasn't the King of England the "head of the Church" in England for a time?

In general though, I would say that is going to be a rarity in Christianity.

Other religions might make allowances for it, but there would have to be a way for someone to receive the authority without being invested in the religion prior. Reincarnation sort of gives a frame work, but one could argue that the CI came from the previous life. Some watery tart lobbing a scimitar at you perhaps?

All I could imagine is a secular head that rules by "Divine right" having some form of authority conferred by that "right" and recognized by the religious order.

In reality it makes absolutely no sense to give someone not initiated by your organization authority over your organization without some kind of lever. Administrators possibly, but I doubt they would have religious authority it would be more a parallel rank system. They might be able to tell a priest what he was getting for meals or where to sleep, but I don't think they could order a priest to marry someone.

Catholic Nuns were an oddity really, and mostly because the system was set up for men. They had to recognize the ability for a woman to be devout, but they were pretty careful to make sure that they never held the keys. I believe there were circumstances where Nuns could act in an official capacity administering last rights and maybe other lessor functions (the absence of any male clergy being one of those circumstances). Much like monks they could not hear confessions or grant absolution. "Holy Hermits" were another deviation that was more honorary than actual Rank.

I will assume that oppression or threats don't tick the boxes because you aren't recognized by the authority of the religion, but because if they don't do what you tell them they lose their heads. That's not "religious rank" no matter what the guy with the sword wants to call it.

[Kromm]

No Rank requires an advantage across the board, in all organizations found in all cultures. You asked about one example, but here are three:

• Academic Rank is standing in an institution of learning or research. Tenure is a special situation – common in academia – wherein someone cannot be fired under normal circumstances. However, in larger establishments, it's quite possible to be very junior prof (AR 1-2) of great promise and be tenured as a de facto "bribe" to keep you (here, Tenure is a promise of greater AR to come), or to be a senior adjunct or visitor (AR 3+) kept around for a long time but not actually tenured. In many places, institutional administrators also have high AR without Tenure.
  
  
• Police Rank is standing in a law-enforcement organization. Legal Enforcement Powers amount to limited authority to enter restricted areas, detain suspects, demand private records, ask pointed questions, and perhaps bear arms in the enforcement of the law. However, in some jurisdictions, even the greenest beat cop (PR 0) has LEP, while senior police officials might have never been actual cops, but instead have risen through the civil service, and have high rank (PR 3+) but no LEP. In some departments, forensic techs are in a similar situation.
  
  
• Religious Rank is standing in an organized religion. Clerical Investment is temporal recognition of holy privileges, granting the right to carry out specific rituals, offer certain sacraments, enter blessed areas, handle relics, etc. – all depending on the religion. Even a newly invested priest (RR 0-1) will have CI, while a senior official of the faith (RR 3+) might be an administrator, able to order around all the priests but not perform most religious functions.

You can keep going: Guild or Merchant Rank with and without Claim to Hospitality among others of your kind; Intelligence or Military Rank with and without Security Clearance; Administrative, Feudal, or Political Rank with and without Legal Immunity; and so on.

In all cases, this represents an organization with two or more "channels," "commands," "streams," etc. You have one that's occupied doing whatever it is the organization does (research, enforcing laws, seeing to religious needs, trading, fighting, diplomacy, etc.) and another that's occupied supporting or administering the organization as an organization (from cleaning floors and dumping garbage to drawing up budgets and liaising with government officials). Rank in the latter could be seen as separate Administrative Rank, except that – especially at high levels – people in this hierarchy can give orders to people in the other one, even if they lack the license, permission, privilege, or right to carry out those orders themselves.

This is really common in religious organizations. For a great look at Christian examples, see "Those Who Pray" in Pyramid Dungeon Collection.

The essential distinction here is between Rank (pp. 29-30) and Privilege (p. B30). The two usually coexist in organizations, but when creating an organization, it's important to decide whether a given form of privilege is a prerequisite for all Rank or only for specific branches of the Rank tree. And yes, it's possible to have three or more branches with different privilege; it wouldn't be a reach to have a faith where all officials of the temple share Religious Rank but celebrants have Clerical Investment, emissaries have Diplomatic Immunity, inquisitors have Legal Enforcement Powers, teachers have Tenure, administrators have none of that, and nobody can be more than one of those things . . . but Rank lets you order around people who are any of those things, if less senior than you.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Gef

Is Clercal Investment (CI) a prerequisite for Religious Rank (RR)? Are there real-world examples where non-invested hierarchs command priests?

The benefits of CI are a reaction bonus and the right to perform rites. If a guy with RR can command priests, then he can at least get the rites performed.

That leaves the matter of reaction bonus. Under what circumstances would priests command respect if they're known to work for guys who don't deserve that respect?

Thanks. Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but my search yielded nothing.

Well, of course it depends on what the GM designs or declares for the setting.

In terms of the RW, my understanding is that the Pope could appoint anyone to be a cardinal, without that person being ordained, but longstanding practice runs against that. I also have the impression that there are religious organizations that don't have one or the other of investiture or ranks or maybe both.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by bocephus

Wasn't the King of England the "head of the Church" in England for a time?

The Queen is still head of the Church of England.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Anders

The Queen is still head of the Church of England.

Although in GURPS terms, it only amounts to Courtesy Rank, if that. She gets deferred to, but is strictly removed from any actual decision making.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

In terms of the RW, my understanding is that the Pope could appoint anyone to be a cardinal, without that person being ordained, but longstanding practice runs against that.

That may have been true in the past, but I am pretty sure it is no longer the case. Anyone created cardinal who isn't a bishop would be ordained to the episcopate in the process.

However, the catholic church have many cases of brothers/sisters holding religious rank in a religious institute or religious order without being ordained.
Teaching orders, like the Marist Brothers of the Schools, for example. Or any woman order.

There are mixed institute with both layman and priests, and I guess that in some of those (like some of the mendicants orders, maybe ? Not cloistered orders, obviously), a laymen could be in a leadership position over ordained priest.
Whether or not the authority would extend to priesthood matters, or they would defer to the local bishop for that .. I have no idea.