[DF] Beyond the Dungeon

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Anders

Horror. I plan on adapting Ravenloft for DFRPG. Obviously GURPS cannot do this, but maybe a Pyramid issue about Horror and DF...? just putting that out there.

Why cant GURPS handle it?

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Why cant GURPS handle it?

SJG can't do a GURPS supplement/article converting Ravenloft material.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Why cant GURPS handle it?

Originally Posted by corwyn

SJG can't do a GURPS supplement/article converting Ravenloft material.

Exactly. My post was unclear on what GURPS couldn't dol

[scc]

Wasn't there a licensed GURPS book for a D&D world at some point?

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That narrower scope and low emphasis on verisimilitude are present in those other games too (for the most part anyway); unlike GURPS they start there though and don't need an explicit notice that the material will give more weight to genre convention than to realism and to escapism over high-concept themes.

I don't agree with the narrower scope being there too. For what is worth, I'm using AD&D and its second edition as reference (or even fifth edition). For a start, they don't make the split between Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy what we can see at the introduction of DF 1: Adventurers.

Also when you mention realism, it seems to me that it has to do more with extremely down-to-earth matters hardly having something to do with fantasy and adventure (like picking a jury). It's not that you can't find them interesting for placing them in your game, however.

On the other hand, escapism isn't in contrast with high-concept themes. Escapism has a lot to do with anagogy, and most often that would be via high-fantasy. Now, there are two kinds of escapism as well.

Originally Posted by Malfi

I would like to see Dungeon Fantasy Kingdom Building rules in the spirit of wildereness adventures expansion.
A Knight that gets a castle is a typical trope in dnd. I would guess at 500 points this makes sense, you have progressed far enough that now you can stop looting dungeons and build a Castle/Kingdom, so you will have the resources to... Loot EVEN bigger dungeons! Ofcourse castle for fighty types, thiefs guilds for stealthy types, a temple for faithful types and a magic tower for caster types is pretty standard.

A treatment like the one of The Castle Guide for AD&D 2nd ed. would be a good start IMHO.

Originally Posted by Carnifex

Running a court intrigue game with Dungeon Fantasy probably would not end well.

In the aforementioned game, there are many mentions and encouragements for that kind of campaigns.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

I don't agree with the narrower scope being there too. For what is worth, I'm using AD&D and its second edition as reference (or even fifth edition). For a start, they don't make the split between Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy what we can see at the introduction of DF 1: Adventurers.

That game (and even more so its descendents) is geared extremely towards heroic sword-and-sorcery and has less and less support for genres that deviate significantly from there. It isn't for example, going to be as useful doing something like American Gods even though that is a fantasy novel.

Also when you mention realism, it seems to me that it has to do more with extremely down-to-earth matters hardly having something to do with fantasy and adventure (like picking a jury). It's not that you can't find them interesting for placing them in your game, however.

People expect this kind of detail from GURPS supplements. A serious GURPS treatment of founding and managing settlements would need to use rules like those of City Stats and those of Boardroom and Curia and cover everything from the founding of Sumer to the establishment of a colony of nanomorphic fast-folk in the upper atmosphere of a gas giant. It certainly would need details about the fundamentals principles of the administration of justice, because this is a critical part of the management of any settlement!

On the other hand, escapism isn't in contrast with high-concept themes. Escapism has a lot to do with anagogy, and most often that would be via high-fantasy. Now, there are two kinds of escapism as well.

I meant the kind of escapism that makes, as Peter said "more gaming and deeper dungeons" fun, this is a contrast with running something with sophisticated themes that require serious literary criticism to parse, or even ones that are more apparent but complex. Making me think about life, mortality, ethics, and so on does contrast with the variety of escapism that nondeconstructed dungeon delving delivers, because this is the kind of escapism that gets me away from having to think about that kind of stuff!

A treatment like the one of The Castle Guide for AD&D 2nd ed. would be a good start IMHO.

That was, IIRC, geared towards the same sword-and-sorcery usages I am talking about. I agree that GURPS treatment like this would be appropriate for Dungeon Fantasy. I disagree that a treatment like this would be appropriate as a general GURPS supplement on the subject, except as possibly a set of design switches in the greater work.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That game (and even more so its descendents) is geared extremely towards heroic sword-and-sorcery (. . .)

And geared towards high-fantasy as well. It's very broad in comparison with the scope officially acknowledged so far to Dungeon Fantasy (https://goo.gl/j9dyiG):

Originally Posted by Kromm

DF is comic-relief munchkin fantasy. That's how it was born, that's how it was written, and that's how I've seen it played at cons (I've even played in a few games!). It isn't about deep scene-setting or storytelling. It's about whipping out a combat map and slaughtering things to bits for rewards . . . kind of like Munchkin, with GURPS rules.

Returning to your answer:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That was, IIRC, geared towards the same sword-and-sorcery usages I am talking about. I agree that GURPS treatment like this would be appropriate for Dungeon Fantasy. I disagree that a treatment like this would be appropriate as a general GURPS supplement on the subject, except as possibly a set of design switches in the greater work.

Recently I've been revising that material and maybe it's broader than what you may be recalling.

And mentioning The Castle Guide, I am talking about the GURPS Dungeon fantasy frame, or DFPBG as well, not about the standard GURPS frame.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

And geared towards high-fantasy as well. It's very broad in comparison with the scope officially acknowledged so far to Dungeon Fantasy (https://goo.gl/j9dyiG).

“In war the first principle is to disobey orders. Any fool can obey orders!” - First Sea Lord Admiral Sir “Jackie” Fisher

I mean, why do you have to stick with what Kromm officially acknowledges? It's not like the MIBs are going to break down your door and...

wait, what is that knocking sound?

[demonsbane]

Hi Anders,

Even if that attitude isn't very inviting, even contrary to approaches of the kind "use your own criterion", of course one can do as he pleases and I'm not going to deny that the Dungeon Fantasy material is used for running normal fantasy campaigns.

[Anders]

Look, I remember the first edition of the Swedish RPG DoD, from 1982. It had four professions - Warrior, Thief, Learned Man and Wizard. Playing anything other than Human was considered advanced rules. There were no rules for social interaction, or for doing just about anything other than fight and cast spells. Believe me when I say that it was more restricted than DFRPG in almost any way, shape and form. And people played High Fantasy with it. Don't underestimate peoples' ability to invent rules on the fly.

And remember, when you are used to DFRPG, you can easily transfer to GURPS. Or you can convert something like Social Engineering to DFRPG. I think people like to do a bit of work themselves.