More Celestial Combat Questions

[JCD]

I was reading the rules about Celestial combat and a point of interpretation came up.

The rules state the someone in a vessel cannot be damaged by Celestial combat. I likened the will attack to that of a blowgun against someone in full plate armor: irrelevant.

However, I see no reason why a Celestial IN a vessel cannot attack a nearby being IN Celestial form. A man in plate armor, to continue the metaphor, can shoot a blowgun himself.

The only thing I can see which may dispute this is in the Calabim section:

In his celestial form, it does Soul hits to celestial targets equal
to his Celestial Forces plus the check digit.

This might be on of those oversight things by the game designers. "Of course you need to be Celestial to engage in Celestial combat."

I would suggest that, as a house rule, my interpretation be adapted. This makes 'going Celestial' a nice escape clause, but not one without cost. You had best be willing to take some shots if you want to use it. This came up as a result of the kidnapping of a Celestial by a lot of other Celestials. She was hesitant to decamp because she couldn't just leave unscathed.

Am I missing a rule somewhere?

(Head nod Ladyarcana for the rule reference on Calabim)


Archangel Beth: Suggestion for this as a FAQ or Errata entry

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by JCD

The rules state the someone in a vessel cannot be damaged by Celestial combat. I likened the will attack to that of a blowgun against someone in full plate armor: irrelevant.

However, I see no reason why a Celestial IN a vessel cannot attack a nearby being IN Celestial form. A man in plate armor, to continue the metaphor, can shoot a blowgun himself.

The only thing I can see which may dispute this is in the Calabim section:



This might be on of those oversight things by the game designers. "Of course you need to be Celestial to engage in Celestial combat."

I would suggest that, as a house rule, my interpretation be adapted. This makes 'going Celestial' a nice escape clause, but not one without cost. You had best be willing to take some shots if you want to use it. This came up as a result of the kidnapping of a Celestial by a lot of other Celestials. She was hesitant to decamp because she couldn't just leave unscathed.

Am I missing a rule somewhere?

(Head nod Ladyarcana for the rule reference on Calabim)


Archangel Beth: Suggestion for this as a FAQ or Errata entry

Based on the description of the Flaming Sword and that Calabite Resonance, which both specify that the user must be in Celestial Form to do Celestial damage, and the fact that only Calabim of Lust can do Celestial damage though a Vessel ,I would agree that in most cases Celestial Combat is only an option when all participants are in Celesetial Form. The only exception that I can find is the Celestial Song of Light, which does Celestial damage if the target is in Celestial Form, but the singer doesn't have to be.

[Acolyte]

I'm torn on this. The rules as a whole make it pretty clear that the Calabim resonance is written correctly, ie, that you can only do Celestial damage starting from Celestial form (exception: Song of Light).

However, I can see thematically why that Song is an exception, but basic Will+Fighting blows, Numinous Corpus, and damaging physical relics are not. By that logic, the Calabim resonance (which doesn't specify any kind of direct physical link between Calabite and target) should be able to hit anything it can perceive (and note that a lot of Calabim would be fairly unable to locate the celestial form of a suddenly-vanished foe).

All that said, the real danger of going celestial to escape pursuit is that you might fail your Will roll to ascend to Heaven/Hell, leaving you trapped on Earth, still surrounded by foes (who probably also went Celestial after you did), but now much more vulnerable to SERIOUS damage.

[JCD]

I never considered escaping to Heaven. I just note that going Celestial makes a loud but effective escape mechanism while staying on Earth.

For example:

Tyler the Impudite faces an angry Mikhail the Cherub for reasons which don't bear getting into.

Round One: Mikhail gets to do what he wants to and Tyler goes Celestial.

Round Two: Tyler, positioned next to a wall, can move Perception x 6 yards laterally away from the still Corporeal Mikhail.

Mikhail (assuming he perceives Tyler) can a) attack him Celestially (if one follows my assumptions), or b) go Celestial and attempt to follow him, being one round behind him. He is constrained from Corporeally following and hacking at him by physical restraints.

Any hesitation puts Tyler out of range for either option.

At most, Tyler would risk getting a 'ding' on a force. So escaping ONE Celestial is normally pretty easy.

However, Susan, surrounded by 7 Demons, faces a much worse prospect. She can be chased, and even the first round would risk the loss of a Force or two. This makes the possibility of kidnapping a Celestial much more possible...which adds options.

As stated, infering a rule from other decisions is fine, but I'd like the language a bit more explicit

[ladyarcana55]

That is my confusion on the whole subject. It seems that if someone gets in more trouble than they can handle then all they need to do is go Celestial and run. They don't have to go to Heaven or Hell, they can just go away and go Corporeal later.

If that's the case then what's to stop a Kobalite from going to a hospital, wreaking some serious havoc, then going Celestial to escape a group of security surrounding the room he's hiding in?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

That is my confusion on the whole subject. It seems that if someone gets in more trouble than they can handle then all they need to do is go Celestial and run. They don't have to go to Heaven or Hell, they can just go away and go Corporeal later.

If that's the case then what's to stop a Kobalite from going to a hospital, wreaking some serious havoc, then going Celestial to escape a group of security surrounding the room he's hiding in?

My first thought is, does the Kobalite have a Role? If so, he's been recorded on hospital security cameras (either inside the building or out in the parking lot) which gives law enforcement an interesting lead. And if the cameras recorded him disappearing, there may be some "top men" interested in this guy as well. Humans are weak compared to celestials, but they're not stupid, and if they can piece out this guy's earthly identity, his Role is toast and his vessel is known ... which may not please the Great Mocker if he had long-term plans for the guy.

[William]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

That is my confusion on the whole subject. It seems that if someone gets in more trouble than they can handle then all they need to do is go Celestial and run. They don't have to go to Heaven or Hell, they can just go away and go Corporeal later.

If that's the case then what's to stop a Kobalite from going to a hospital, wreaking some serious havoc, then going Celestial to escape a group of security surrounding the room he's hiding in?

He can. That's a loud but effective means of disappearing without a trace, if your pursuers are all corporeal. Celestials have POWERz... this is one of them.

The only downside is if he's perceived in celestial form by one of the humans as he makes his escape. Causing a human to realize that the horrible series of events that just occurred was the work of an actual, fire-and-brimstone demon from Hell is a fantastic opportunity for the GM to declare karmic blowback -- bam, you just woke up a potential Soldier who is going to get himself involved in the war as a demon-fighter, most likely getting snatched up by Heaven if he's not caught be Hell in time.

[Jason]

A simple workaround for GMs who think this is too much of a "get out of Trauma free" card might be to say that "going celestial" takes some number of rounds of complete concentration. That makes it harder to do in the middle of a fight or other commotion.

[Archangel Beth]

I think the metaphor isn't quite accurate. It's not that someone is in armor, in their vessel. It's that someone is in a hermetically sealed bubble, in their vessel. It's like the Songs of Shields. Ain't nothing coming in, but ain't nothing going out.

Some Songs and abilities allow a limited sort of gun-turret effect to sprout from the flesh-hamsterball of protection.

Yes, one can go celestial and run away from a bad corporeal situation -- but it's noisy and attracts attention, and you're making a gamble that people won't chase you down and not just beat you up, but kill you.

That said, when our motley lot of PCs wanted to nuke the not-very-powerful caretaker of a forming Vapulan Tether (or maybe it was just a Vapulan stronghold; I forget), we brought in a NPC with the Song of Seals, who bound the area the demon was in. Shedite, as I recall. Knocked out the host, and then the NPC Malakite with a distinction, the PC Kyriotate with Acid/6 and a lot of Celestial Forces, and everyone else (except my Renegade Lilim) all played Kick The Demon until it died. There was some math done to figure out how long it lasted, IIRC.


The text that you want -- celestial combat only in celestial form -- is implicit in "Celestial Forms on Earth," p. 53 of the core rules. (Marked as p. 54 because of the cover.) Last sentence of that paragraph is: "He may also engage in celestial combat -- see p. 64."