[Melee] Pick V Axe

[tanniynim]

Originally Posted by Icelander

*shrug*

In most realistic settings, a crippled enemy is crippled and you don't care about him anymore. Whether he dies, lives as a cripple for the rest of his days or recovers completely is probably irrelevant to most characters who are only concerned with that he stop trying to kill them.

Unless the GM intends on that character returning later for revenge. Or unless the person hit by the pick is a PC.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by tanniynim

Unless the GM intends on that character returning later for revenge. Or unless the person hit by the pick is a PC.

Sure.

I never said this property of the pick should be abolished or that the rules shouldn't exist.

I just noted that this was not a concern likely to influence weapon selection for many heroic PCs. Generally, at least in my experience, such characters aim to have damage and skill high enough to make it unecessary to attack the same limb many times.

Picks, as the rules currently stand, are good for those not confident of their ability to deal fight winning blows with lighter weapons. That generally excludes most combat-oriented PCs in my campaigns.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Icelander

...Picks, as the rules currently stand, are good for those not confident of their ability to deal fight winning blows with lighter weapons. ...

As nearly as I can tell by the numbers, using this interpretation of the rules, the pick is good for no one and should never be used by anyone for any reason.

It does sw+1 Imp, which is great, but that is offset by the fact that it can only be used every other turn, limits your movement when it does hit etc.

The Axe clearly is the superior weapon for Damage dealt per blow in the 10-18 ST range.

Furthermore, its not just the Axe, the light club is almost as good, the mace is better (except for narrow range of 18ST between DR 0 and 3), and thats only considering comprable weapons (one handed, unblalanced, less than 100$ MIN-ST=10+-1)

Its just a useless weapon if the fight lasts more than one turn.

Nymdok

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

As nearly as I can tell by the numbers, using this interpretation of the rules, the pick is good for no one and should never be used by anyone for any reason.

I'm not at all sure of that.

Against an unarmoured foe, a ST 11 character does 1d+1 cut with an axe, which averages 6.75 points of injury per bow. The pick does 1d imp, which averages 7 points.

Sure, the pick does half that in the later round, but then again, there's no need to roll to hit and the opponent doesn't get a defence. That's not irrelevant.

And the pick can target vitals.

But the current rules and the Low-Tech rules might be subtly different.

[Sam Baughn]

Oddly enough, although a good pick is more expensive than a good axe, a fine pick is a lot cheaper than a fine axe.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm not at all sure of that.

Against an unarmoured foe, a ST 11 character does 1d+1 cut with an axe, which averages 6.75 points of injury per bow. The pick does 1d imp, which averages 7 points.

Sure, the pick does half that in the later round, but then again, there's no need to roll to hit and the opponent doesn't get a defence. That's not irrelevant.

And the pick can target vitals.

But the current rules and the Low-Tech rules might be subtly different.

ST11=>SW=1D+1=>
Axe DMG - (1d+3)*1.5 = 9.5
Pick DMG = (1d+2)*2 = 11
Where the Average of 1D is of course 3.5.

Fair enough, for the First round, the edge goes to the Pick.

The Second Turn, IF you beat your ST, your pick will do the damage, so the total Expectation of Damage that round is 11*(.63) where .63 is your odds of rolling 11 or less on 3d6.

EVEN IF YOU DO, your total Dmg for those 2 rounds averages
11+(11*.5*.63*.5)
The first .5 is because it does half damage on the way out.
The Second is becase its over 2 turns
the .63 is again the odds that you'll be able to do the damage at all!

Thats 11+1.7 or 12.7 compared to the Axes 19!

We assumed that both attacks Hit the first round, knowing what we know now, lets take a glancing look at what might happen for the Axeman in the second round.

To match the Pickmans Expectation of 12.7 we need to be 34 percent likely to score a hit. [12.7-9.5 = 3.2; 3.2/9.5 = 33.7]

To score a hit, the attacker must succeed and the defender must fail.
In other words
(Odds Attacker Will Succeed)*(Odds defender will fail) > .337

The numbers are even more complex still when we look at crits, because they get no defense.

The basic equation Looks like this:

(Crit Odds)+(Odds Attacker will hit without Crit)*(Odds Defender will Fail)>34%

For Example If the AxeMan has a 16 Skill and Takes a simple attack on that 2nd turn then we need the odds the defender will fail to be about 28% or about a 12 for a defense.

If the Axeman Takes a DecepAttack down to 12, Giving the Defender -2, then the Defender can have a Defense up to 13 and still outpace the pickman!

Feel free to do your own calculations for other skill levels.

As far as the vitals go, I treated that here

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=23

And that was assuming the Pickman had 3 levels HIGHER of skill than the Axeman (An unfair advantage!).


Nymdok

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Icelander

...But the current rules and the Low-Tech rules might be subtly different...

I'll await any subtlty with the patience of a Monk. Untill then, Imna try to find a way to fiddle with the curve to where for equal Skill, ST the expectation is....

At Dr <= 2 Axe Dmg is greater

At Dr >= 5 Pick Dmg is greater.

At Dr =3-4 Dmg is Similar


Nymdok

[Verjigorm]

Yet the pick still has the ability to target chinks in armor AND vitals. That's a big deal when you're fighting opponents in armor that can stand up to any one-handed weapon that's swung at you(say DR8-9).

For Instance, ST 11 man with Pick, Mace and Axe vs DR 8
Axe: 1d+3 cut, 4-9 base damage, average 6.5
Mace: 2d cru, 2-12 base damage, average 7
Pick: 1d+2 Imp, 3-8 base damage, average 5.5

None of these weapons can penetrate the armor on an average roll, the axe and mace can both do some damage on a lucky roll, while the pick is unable to do so.

However, the Pick, unlike the Axe or Mace is able to be used to target the chinks in the armor, reducing the DR to 4, allowing it to actually inflict damage. If the pick was also targeting the vitals, then it's possible to actually inflict a considerable amount of damage over the axe.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

....However, the Pick, unlike the Axe or Mace is able to be used to target the chinks in the armor, reducing the DR to 4, allowing it to actually inflict damage. If the pick was also targeting the vitals, then it's possible to actually inflict a considerable amount of damage over the axe.

Treated that here.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=23

To get 8 levels better of skill to offset the Penalty, thats 24 points. Thats 3 levels of ST (without the HP) which, although I havent run those numbers, they should offset by moving the average to 9 dmg. (50/50 getting through that armor).

Or for that matter, By a nice grappling skill and wrench him into a Picasso sculpture :)

The point is that once we begin treating our hypothetical warriors THAT differently, the comparrison is more about warrior than weapon.

Nymdok

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Treated that here.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=23

To get 8 levels better of skill to offset the Penalty, thats 24 points. Thats 3 levels of ST (without the HP) which, although I havent run those numbers, they should offset by moving the average to 9 dmg. (50/50 getting through that armor).

Or for that matter, By a nice grappling skill and wrench him into a Picasso sculpture :)

The point is that once we begin treating our hypothetical warriors THAT differently, the comparrison is more about warrior than weapon.

Nymdok

Except that in order to offset the -6 penalty to targeting the chinks in armor, you only need to evaulate for two rounds and then making an all-out attack. While an Axe-user can do the same thing, in this isntance, his All-out attack still suffers fro mthe fact that it CANNOT penetrate armor. Thus, the Pick, in the hands of two warriors of the same skill, has an advantage against armored foes.