Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

[mook]

What an excellent idea. :)

For choosing new weapons for the PCs, it looks like Wikipedia has a shopping list all picked out for me: Equipment of the Syrian Army!

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by acrosome

But it is highly unlikely that a mission like this would be entrusted to a pack of 22 year-olds. A 22 year-old cannot have completed an enlistment in special operations and then SAD training. Very few (still whole) SF guys only do one enlistment, anyway.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure that the average PMO straight out of SAD training is going to have ~ 10+ years of field experience.

Even Mike Spann had 6 years as a USMC Officer before going into SAD. Add in 4 years of college and a year of SAD training and the guy is 29 right out of the gate.

I've met some pretty dense Rangers, but if the guy made it into SAD then IQ9 probably wouldn't cut it.

Exactly. There is a reason these units have a rigorous selection process.

Also, if you check out the 4th Ed book SEALs in Vietnam, the base template for SEALs is DX 13, IQ 13. To me, that is what the GURPS developers think the average, non-cinematic SEAL is going to be like.

As an Army guy I'm inherently biased against Force Recon...

Ditto. Plus it's easy to make fun of Marines, in general.

...and agree that most are at best IQ10. But if they were selected for SAD they might be exceptional. :) So, clearly you have bought into the USMC propaganda.

As much as it pains me to defend the jarheads, I think there is more to this than just USMC propaganda.

Pretty much all of the initial MARSOC guys came from the FR Companies. And MARSOC is no joke.

Plus they have a pretty intensive training pipeline. Again, I don't think all FR Marines are PMO material, but I would bet a higher percentage could pass SAD Selection than what you'd get from the batt-boys.

In your defense the Marines do have a vigorous PR department. But they also like to present the entire Marine Corps as an "elite" force, which the rest of the US Military finds farcical.

Thankfully, it is a notion that is quickly dispelled once you meet your first Marine.

Force Recon is a different animal, though. Nonetheless they are much more like Rangers than like SEALs or Army SFOD Delta.

Agreed. Very different mission than Rangers, and tougher training pipeline, but age, skillsets, and qualities will be similar.

I could be wrong but I suspect that SAD operators are no longer in the US Military and thus shouldn't have Military Rank. Perhaps courtesy rank if retired from the military, but they are now in the CIA as "paramilitary officers," so perhaps Administrative Rank?

They have GS levels, but those are more paygrades than actual GURPS Rank. And your previous military rank is pretty much meaningless once you become a PMO. You could be a former US Army Major in Delta/CAG/ACE, but your team leader used to be a junior petty officer SEAL.

Even then, the DEVGRU guy wouldn't be a staff sergeant- he'd be a petty officer of some sort. (Navy, remember?) But an E6 special operator would be a rather inexperienced one, excepting the Ranger. Their promotions work faster than the rest of the military, so they tend to be rank-heavy. Unless your US Army SF guy was a direct-enlistment 18X he looks particularly odd that way. SF enlisted guys tend to have rank.

In Army SF, your E6s and E7s will fill most of the ranks of an ODA. You'll probably have an E8 as the team daddy, a WO as the Assistant DC, and a Captain as the DC. I know the Navy puts two officers in a SEAL platoon (one O2 and one O3), but I'm not sure about the rest of the ranks. And the DevGru guy, if he started as an enlisted guy was at least an E7 before going SAD.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by mook

Honestly, I didn't look at the nuts and bolts of it as closely as that -- it was just more of a catch-all for me as the GM to be able to say, "Oh, right, of course you'd have a crowbar!" or whatever. :)

I, uhhh, like to reverse engineer stuff - so this is what I'd do. Totally going to use this in my next game and see how it works. If it works good - I've got a perfect article where this can go.

Originally Posted by Randyman

Post-con ideas for you:

1. Write up the PCs, adventure, etc., possibly beyond what you needed at the con.
2. Join the G+ Pyramid Writers Assistance group (or whatever it's called)
3. Submit the result to Pyramid.

:)

I heartily endorse this idea - but I would, wouldn't I? :-D

[mook]

Howdy Folks!

The version 2.0 PCs are up (same links as above). I doubt I'll have time for any significant changes unless I messed up something big. Summary of changes:

• Added two Job Training advantages to bring the point costs down a bit (they are all now 350 point PCs). Full details of these below.
• Added in some skills to their packages: Filch, Pickpocket, Photography, Smuggling, Traps
• Made them all older, raised the ST minimum to 13 and the IQ minimum to 12 (except for Heavy Weapons)
• Removed Military Rank
• Added Thermographic optics and targeting lasers to the long arms
• Changed long arms to AK-47s, sidearms to Browning Hi-Powers, sniper rifle is still SVD (but with better optics and hand-loaded match-grade ammo), heavy weapon is now Russian RPK
• Added significant amounts of ammo magazines
• Gave the riflemen door breaching charges, the sniper and heavy weapons MON-50 anti-personnel mines
• Expanded their unarmed techniques a bit (though I don't envision a lot of hand to hand, ya never know!)
• Tweaked the Heavy Weapons operator to be an ad-hoc Face man should the need arise.

New Job Training advantages:

Special Forces (32)

Armoury (Small Arms)
Camouflage
Climbing
Engineer (Combat)
Explosives
Fast-Draw
First Aid
Forced Entry
Forward Observer
Gesture
Gunner
Guns
Hiking
Judo
Karate
Knife
Leadership
Navigation
Parachuting
Scrounging
Shortsword
Soldier
Strategy
Survival
Swimming
Tactics
Teaching
Throwing
Tracking
Traps
Urban Survival
Wrestling

SOG (22)

Acting
Body Language
Cryptography
Diplomacy
Disguise
Escape
Fast-Talk
Filch
Forensics
Holdout
Intelligence Analysis
Interrogation
Intimidation
Lip Reading
Lockpicking
Observation
Pickpocket
Search
Shadowing
Smuggling
Stealth
Streetwise


Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions! Hopefully version 2.0 is a step forward and not back.

[acrosome]

I'm sure that there are all sorts of variants out there, but the basic version of the Browning Hi-Power has a 13-round magazine, not 15.

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Pretty much all of the initial MARSOC guys came from the FR Companies. And MARSOC is no joke.

But Force Recon is not MARSOC. You could as easily say "All the SFOD-Delta guys went through Ranger school, and SFOD-Delta is no joke." While true, this doesn't make the average Ranger any smarter or more capable. I would argue similarly regarding Force Recon. They really differ from Rangers mostly in that they have different missions, so some training differs- but they are about the same tier.

I'll stop the Marine-bashing now, though, before I start fulfilling too many stereotypes... :)

[safisher]

Originally Posted by mook

[*]Added Thermographic optics and targeting lasers to the long arms

You don't need these for a covert mission. Locals won't have them. If you are going in covert, they'll probably have ACOGs and maybe a TG or two.

[*]Changed long arms to AK-47s, sidearms to Browning Hi-Powers, sniper rifle is still SVD (but with better optics and hand-loaded match-grade ammo), heavy weapon is now Russian RPK

If covert, they won't have mixed ammo. They'll have comblock issue ball ammo.

[*]Gave the riflemen door breaching charges, the sniper and heavy weapons MON-50 anti-personnel mines

The M86 PDM is on HT189. These guys will probably use foamed or extrudable explosives for door breaching, but if they are covert, probably not. I'd still look at the Warfighter Gear article I mentioned, particularly it's remarks about "personalized gear."

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by acrosome

But Force Recon is not MARSOC. You could as easily say "All the SFOD-Delta guys went through Ranger school, and SFOD-Delta is no joke." While true, this doesn't make the average Ranger any smarter or more capable. I would argue similarly regarding Force Recon. They really differ from Rangers mostly in that they have different missions, so some training differs- but they are about the same tier.

A apologize for not being clear in my previous post about USMC FR and MARSOC.

First, read this:

Originally Posted by MARSOC History

The establishment of MARSOC represented the most significant step towards that goal, and followed the establishment of MCSOCOM Detachment One (DET1), a small Marine Corps detachment formed as a pilot program to test Marine Corps integration into SOCOM. It was made up of mostly Force Recon Marines from 1st and 2nd Force Reconnaissance Companies along with other hand picked support men and served with Navy SEALs under Naval Special Warfare Group One. Detachment 1 conducted a multitude of special operations in Iraq alongside their Special Operations brothers of the sister services. SOCOM conducted a study of the unit's deployment, which clearly indicated success and strong performance. Detachment 1 was disbanded in 2006 soon after the creation of MARSOC.

Emphasis mine. When the Marines decided to create MARSOC, they figured the best, most capable Marines to populate the unit initially would be pulled from FR.

I never meant to imply that ALL FR Marines = MARSOC. But those FR jarheads formed MARSOC DET1 BEFORE they had a Selection program...and BEFORE they had a full blow MARSOC pipeline.

These guys had the skills and capabilities to do SOF work before they joined the pilot program.

Look, FR != MARSOC. But you would be kidding yourself if you ignored the fact that MARSOC was born FROM FR.

No one ever argues that Delta was formed from the Rangers.

Completely different birth cycle.

I'll stop the Marine-bashing now, though, before I start fulfilling too many stereotypes... :)

Please continue. Despite my posts, I sincerely LOVE Marine bashing!

Q: Did you know that MARINE is an acronym?

Muscles
Are
Required
Intelligence
Not
Essential

I'm sure that will net me some counter-fire. :-)

[Critical]

I think 11 HT for all except one with 12 HT seems like a low average for this team (even with them all being fit). Another thing I would expect from SF types is Perception and maybe Will scores above their IQs, at least for some of them.

[cosmicfish]

Just looking at Tyler James (Navy), I had a few observations/questions:

Is there a reason for the low Will? It seems like both special ops AND the CIA would tend to select and train for high Will.

Soldier is only 1 point, for one of the most elite soldiers on the planet?

Swimming is only 1 point, for a guy who had to essentially live in the water for several years?

Explosives??? SEALs spend a LOT of training time on explosives, and while they are not EOD specialists I think you are selling them a little short.

Elec Ops/Repair are at an odd level - too high for generalists (who would rely on Soldier) and too low for specialists.

I could quibble a lot over specific point values in skills, but for a one-off adventure I won't comment any more than I already have.

Right after Neptune Spear, some magazine, book, or newspaper published a complete load-out for one of the mission. I remember that it included US dollars (to aid tertiary extraction, accepted everywhere!), snacks, spare batteries, and breaching tools, along with a few other things. Not sure where to find it, but I'll look...

[mook]

Originally Posted by acrosome

I'm sure that there are all sorts of variants out there, but the basic version of the Browning Hi-Power has a 13-round magazine, not 15.

I made a lot of minor tweaks to equipment - 15 shots instead of 13 allows five full turns of firing ~3 shots each, instead of four turns plus a single bullet. :) The more I can reduce even trivial math, the better to streamline the game. I also tweaked some weights to make sure no operative had more than Light encumbrance, everyone has a 16 Rifle skill (except the sniper), that sort of thing.

Originally Posted by safisher

You don't need these for a covert mission. Locals won't have them. If you are going in covert, they'll probably have ACOGs and maybe a TG or two.

Yeah, I was thinking of just using stock AKs instead of the fancy stuff to "blend" better, and they'll still have their (Russian-made) N/V goggles.

Originally Posted by Critical

I think 11 HT for all except one with 12 HT seems like a low average for this team (even with them all being fit). Another thing I would expect from SF types is Perception and maybe Will scores above their IQs, at least for some of them.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Is there a reason for the low Will? It seems like both special ops AND the CIA would tend to select and train for high Will.

I began running into the problem that, if I make everything above average, they start turning into superheroes. Which isn't to say that they aren't, but they also need to be gameable! If the all the minimums are super high, there's not enough room to differentiate even a little -- I could just give everyone a 13 in all four stats and call it a day. I'm hoping a Will of 12 will be enough.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Soldier is only 1 point, for one of the most elite soldiers on the planet?
Swimming is only 1 point, for a guy who had to essentially live in the water for several years?
Explosives??? SEALs spend a LOT of training time on explosives, and while they are not EOD specialists I think you are selling them a little short.

Agreed! But, same problem as the attributes - I settled on looking at the final skill level instead of how many points invested. If a solder has a DX or IQ of 13 or 14, even a single point in every logical skill is going to give them a lot of really high skill levels. If the hundreds of hours they spend training were turned into, say, 4 points, I was afraid they'd start creeping up to (even more) insane skill levels. (Which, btw, I'd be all for in an ongoing campaign, but for a one-shot I'm trying to have a bit more of a handle on things).

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Right after Neptune Spear, some magazine, book, or newspaper published a complete load-out for one of the mission. I remember that it included US dollars (to aid tertiary extraction, accepted everywhere!), snacks, spare batteries, and breaching tools, along with a few other things. Not sure where to find it, but I'll look...

Ooh, that sounds insanely useful! All I found was this one, but I don't think it's the same.


Thanks a ton for all the great advice, all! These characters were all greatly improved by your input.