bare-fingered digging and damage to hands?

[Plane]

So there's this scene in infinity train (ep 12) where one character is digging really quickly bare-handed and is asked if they have "special .. strength".

They reply "no, I just don't feel pain like you with your squishy flesh". IE they probably have some DR which is helping them.

B350 bases digging on one's basic lift.

Using a pick on "ordinary soil" makes it slightly more efficient, instead of 1/hour (3xBL f^3 per 3 hours) if you break up 4xBL in the first hour making it loose, you then pick up that 4x (at 2x per hour) over the next 2 hour, giving you a net rate of 4xBL f^3 per 3 hours) Not the hugest advantage but slightly beneficial.

It seems you can work around the need to break it up w/ a pick through non-picked digging.

It almost seems like on ordinary soil you are effectively using your first hour to break up 2xBL (instead of the 4xBL of a pick) into a loose soil, then the 2nd hour to lift it per usual.

This "pickless speed" is of course not bare-handed. I overlooked it initially but B350 mentions it assumes you have "iron or steel" tools, with x2 time (half speed) for wood and x4 (or more?) time (quarter or worse speed) for "improvised", listing "bare hands" or "mess kit" as examples (not the clearest guideline).

Should there maybe be some wear and tear on the hands when using your hands like a pseudo-shovel (much less a pseudo-pick, that should probably be impossible) in this fashion?

If we view wooden tools as half-effectiveness metal tools (I'm assuming the non-pick application of "tools" refers to shovels here, not sure what else you would need) then maybe we view bare hands as half-effectiveness wooden tools?

I was thinking maybe if we had some rules to allow for damage to happen to the hands while digging bare-handed (whether this is for ordinary or hard soil) and then having hand DR could insulate you against it.

You could even apply rules like this to wooden or metal tools but since they inherently have DR it probably wouldn't be an issue of them taking damage over time.

In terms of "damaging the ground" I don't think punching would make sense (you're only packing it harder) so maybe something like an "eye poke" (MA72 ignoring the -9 for hitting eyes, giving +4 to target a hex instead) could be used as the basis for damage (thrust-3 crush)

Unlike punches, the "poke" attack has "Hurting Yourself (p. B379) applies
if your target has any DR, not just DR 3+" which means if ordinary soil has DR 1 you're going to suffer 1/5 the damage you're inflicting to that homogenous entity as you poke holes into it and then scoop pieces out of it.

Per RAW of course this won't actually hurt you unless your poke does 5+ damage (pretty rare outside crits for normal ST) though if you house-rule w/ decile damage and accrue 0.2 per 1 dmg that could wreck your hands very rapidly.

If that were done when using "Fingerpoke" as an improvised "thrust shovel stab" then it would explain why digging with gloves (or natural hand DR) would allow you to dick much faster since you could make stronger-damage attacks (penetrating soil more deeply, breaking it up better) without self-harming.

That or I guess high pain threshold would work too (you'd suffer the HP but it wouldn't affect your DX via shock ... though I can't remember if there's a skill roll for digging)

The only thing of course is we don't exactly have any idea of how to adapt combat mechanics like damage for digging. The BL-based speed makes sense for "how long does it take me to scoop this loose stuff off the ground" as it's based on Lifting ST, but I would think Striking ST would be what you would use for the rapid strikes (whether with a pickaxe, a shovel or fingers) used to actually puncture the soil prior to a scoop.

Is there some way we could stat a cubic foot (or yard) of soil into some kind of creature and assign it HP and somehow depleting that HP is what transforms it into the softer stage of soil (diffuse instead of homogenous) that can actually be lifted up?

I'm assuming higher DR and mass is why a metal shovel would work better than a wooden one, since if they had the same blade size they should be able to scoop the same volume of loose soil as a metal shovel, so long as it didn't break under the load (and there's only so much mass of soil you can fit in a single scoop of a given shovelhead's surface area)

I'm aware PU2p10 has the "burrower" perk which lets you act as if you had a shovel (doesn't specify if this means a metal or a wood one though...) but that's not quite what I'm talking about. I assume that could refer to just having larger hands the size of a shovelhead, since this perk doesn't require having DR.

B94 tunneling could also be relevant in some way but I don't know how to make that interact with Striking ST or hand DR for "digging as combat" approach.

[whswhs]

The Tunnelling advantage is superhuman and transcends not just what human beings can do, but what tunnelling machines can do; it represents cinematic subterrenes, sandworms, and similar fantastic entities. A human being whose hands were as hard as stone or iron might have the Burrower perk, but not the Tunnelling advantage.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

Is there some way we could stat a cubic foot (or yard) of soil into some kind of creature and assign it HP and somehow depleting that HP is what transforms it into the softer stage of soil (diffuse instead of homogenous) that can actually be lifted up?

Pretty much no. GURPS is mostly interested to damage to creatures, it does a terrible job modeling damage to large homogenous objects you have to just chip away at. Which is a perfectly valid game design decision, chipping away at large inanimate objects isn't exactly dramatically interesting, but is something to remember.

[Varyon]

I wouldn't try to twist and contort things like the Hurting Yourself, HP of homogenous objects, etc rules into something that works here. Rather, I'd just look at things a bit more distantly.

In this case, we're going with the assumption (not a bad one, and certainly would work in a cinematic campaign) that you may be able to dig faster with your bare hands if they're sufficiently armored, or you're willing to accept the risk of hurting yourself. Certainly, there should be some level of DR where this isn't the case. Metal tools can work just fine without risk of breakage by the rules, and metal tools often have DR 4, so let's go with DR 4 to be more-or-less proof against damage from this rapid digging. Digging without regard for damage to your hands is roughly comparable to digging with bone tools (that's basically what you're doing, you just have some fleshy bits around it), which should be comparable to wood, which is itself canonically half speed. A quick balance check tells us this puts this option right smack dab between default and the Burrower Perk, which sounds about right.

So, if you have DR 4+ on your hands, you can dig barehanded at double speed compared to normal, while a character with dedicated digging ability is at 4x default (for Burrower) or faster (for those with Tunneling). Quick, easy, done.

... except we want characters with DR less than 4 to be able to benefit. So, thinking about it, on average DR 4 will prevent 1d of damage. That means putting 1d cr damage to the hands somewhere in the equation will accomplish what we need (note if you dislike using averages and want to use maximums instead, you'll either need DR 6+ to avoid the damage or reduce the damage to 1d-2 cr). My inclination is to say you suffer 1d cr for every 20 minutes - or fraction thereof - of digging, and DR protects normally. Determine which hand this affects randomly.


As for digging through stone and the like with bare hands, a normal human can't really do that with bare hands alone. However, I'd treat that as a case where the character is instead prying out a loose stone (which typically is doable with bare hands) and using that to beat on the other stone to break it up. His improvised tool isn't likely to survive terribly long, but that's fine - by the time it's too worn down to use further, he'll have basically created a new one from the stones he's been beating on with it.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Pretty much no. GURPS is mostly interested to damage to creatures, it does a terrible job modeling damage to large homogenous objects you have to just chip away at. Which is a perfectly valid game design decision, chipping away at large inanimate objects isn't exactly dramatically interesting, but is something to remember.

For some reason I'm thinking dirt-as-characters would be very Dwarf Fortress.

Originally Posted by Varyon

In this case, we're going with the assumption (not a bad one, and certainly would work in a cinematic campaign) that you may be able to dig faster with your bare hands if they're sufficiently armored, or you're willing to accept the risk of hurting yourself.

Yeah, especially if there's stuff like sharp stones mixed in with soft soil. I know personally when I'm digging barehanded I instinctively go slower and feel my way around to avoid pressure points.

There's also stuff like when you pull out roots growing in your yard. Those can pinch bare flesh if you're holding them in a rope-grip, gloves help avoid abrasions w/ that.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Certainly, there should be some level of DR where this isn't the case. Metal tools can work just fine without risk of breakage by the rules, and metal tools often have DR 4, so let's go with DR 4 to be more-or-less proof against damage from this rapid digging.

Probably don't need steel gauntets and stuff (that would limit gripping dexterity) I was just thinking 1 DR because I can't imagine digging w/ more force than it takes to deliver a "5 crushing" basic damage, which 1 DR protects from Hurting Yourself.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Digging without regard for damage to your hands is roughly comparable to digging with bone tools (that's basically what you're doing, you just have some fleshy bits around it), which should be comparable to wood, which is itself canonically half speed. A quick balance check tells us this puts this option right smack dab between default and the Burrower Perk, which sounds about right.

So you figure the Burrower perk implies the steel tool rate and not the wood tool rate?


So, if you have DR 4+ on your hands, you can dig barehanded at double speed compared to normal, while a character with dedicated digging ability is at 4x default (for Burrower) or faster (for those with Tunneling). Quick, easy, done.

Originally Posted by Varyon

... except we want characters with DR less than 4 to be able to benefit. So, thinking about it, on average DR 4 will prevent 1d of damage. That means putting 1d cr damage to the hands somewhere in the equation will accomplish what we need (note if you dislike using averages and want to use maximums instead, you'll either need DR 6+ to avoid the damage or reduce the damage to 1d-2 cr). My inclination is to say you suffer 1d cr for every 20 minutes - or fraction thereof - of digging, and DR protects normally. Determine which hand this affects randomly.

You rarely get 1d crushing from hurting yourself, were you thinking Collision rules for damage?

Originally Posted by Varyon

As for digging through stone and the like with bare hands, a normal human can't really do that with bare hands alone. However, I'd treat that as a case where the character is instead prying out a loose stone (which typically is doable with bare hands) and using that to beat on the other stone to break it up. His improvised tool isn't likely to survive terribly long, but that's fine - by the time it's too worn down to use further, he'll have basically created a new one from the stones he's been beating on with it.

There's this gradual GURPS scale to superheroes who probably could dig through stones (although cleaving them in two w/ a crushing attack is a bit off-base, much like we lack rules for severing arms via Wrench Limb, you need a custom Cutting Attack from Fantasy to do it)

[Donny Brook]

Just for rufference, we have a 14lb dog and I have seen her dig a 6" deep by 8" diameter conical hole in our grass in less than 15 seconds.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

Yeah, especially if there's stuff like sharp stones mixed in with soft soil. I know personally when I'm digging barehanded I instinctively go slower and feel my way around to avoid pressure points.

There's also stuff like when you pull out roots growing in your yard. Those can pinch bare flesh if you're holding them in a rope-grip, gloves help avoid abrasions w/ that.

That stuff is more general discomfort than damage; seeing as using bare hands and using a mess kit see no difference, I assume the GURPS rules don't consider the person going slower to avoid discomfort, just injury.

Originally Posted by Plane

Probably don't need steel gauntets and stuff (that would limit gripping dexterity) I was just thinking 1 DR because I can't imagine digging w/ more force than it takes to deliver a "5 crushing" basic damage, which 1 DR protects from Hurting Yourself.
[...]
You rarely get 1d crushing from hurting yourself, were you thinking Collision rules for damage?

"Hurting Yourself" is for punching with a properly-formed fist, not striking with your fingertips (which is more-or-less what you do when digging barehanded). Realistically, I think things like Lethal Strike (which is a strike with the fingertips) should suffer more injury when striking a hard surface, rather than just reducing the DR limit, but the latter is a lot easier in play and is honestly more fun (remember, GURPS is not a reality simulator, it's a roleplaying system).

That said, if you want to make DR 1 (which you can probably manage with thick gardening gloves) sufficient, just make it 1 cr per unit time (I suggested 20 minutes, but you can use whatever) and you should be good. Or maybe even have it be something like thr/5 cr, round up (as for Hurting Yourself).

As for going with 1d? Part was a desire for variability - 1d has a chance of crippling the hand of a typical person, which would be an appropriate result if you suddenly jam your hand at full strength into a sharp rock. It also happened to be negated (on average) by DR 4, which is my go-to DR for ignoring the Hurting Yourself rules, not suffering the -3 for Parrying Unarmed, and so forth.

Originally Posted by Plane

So you figure the Burrower perk implies the steel tool rate and not the wood tool rate?

Yes. It just says "a shovel," without specifying if it's made of orichalcum, steel, wood, stone, or papier-mâché. That indicates the intent was that it's equivalent to having a typical shovel, and the rules are clear a typical shovel is a metal one.

Originally Posted by Plane

There's this gradual GURPS scale to superheroes who probably could dig through stones (although cleaving them in two w/ a crushing attack is a bit off-base, much like we lack rules for severing arms via Wrench Limb, you need a custom Cutting Attack from Fantasy to do it)

Honestly, that's probably handled fine by the fact such characters have high ST, which is what you base digging speed off of. A character with ST 20 who is digging barehanded but is careful enough to avoid injury (so 1/4th the rate of using metal tools) digs at the same rate as an ST 10 human using metal tools, regardless of if they're going through loose soil or solid rock (so long as both the Super and the mundane human are working on the same type of material).

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Just for rufference, we have a 14lb dog and I have seen her dig a 6" deep by 8" diameter conical hole in our grass in less than 15 seconds.

Dogs are pretty incredible diggers - both their claws and the way their body structure is layed out allows them to dig really well. I wouldn't oppose giving some of them the Burrower Perk, honestly. Of course, that was also for a quick burst of speed, comparable to Sprinting while the hourly rate is more akin to Hiking.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

"Hurting Yourself" is for punching with a properly-formed fist, not striking with your fingertips (which is more-or-less what you do when digging barehanded).

It's for both, Finger Poke in GURPS Martial Arts just says the difference is it takes effect against DR1+ instead of 3+

Originally Posted by Varyon

Realistically, I think things like Lethal Strike (which is a strike with the fingertips) should suffer more injury when striking a hard surface, rather than just reducing the DR limit

Same.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Dogs are pretty incredible diggers - both their claws and the way their body structure is layed out allows them to dig really well. I wouldn't oppose giving some of them the Burrower Perk, honestly.

Or maybe it's because they have Blunt Claws? I don't think that gives hand DR the way Hooves gives foot DR but it does increase damage.