[Magic] The Utter Dome Loophole

[Jerander]

Hi,

I've just had the Utter Dome Loophole explained to me. According to Magic, Utter Dome blocks magic as a Pentagram and blocks physical effects as Force Dome. Neither Pentagram nor Force Dome block magic items. Therefore, a non-magical being can attack across an Utter Dome with a magical weapon (Glaive, Arrows, etc.) to affect those inside.

Now, this seems a little silly to me. So my question is how to close the loophole in a manner while also not allowing an absolute defense. Two thoughts:

Pentagram allows a magical creature one Quick Contest -- (ST+Will)/2 vs. Spell's Power -- per day. Is there some way to include a similar mechanic for physically entering an Utter Dome (and Force Dome)? Maybe convert an attack's damage to an effective ST and use that in the Quick Contest?

Make the Utter Dome non-permiable in both directions. So those inside the Utter Dome cannot be attacked by those outside, but neither can those outside be attacked by those inside (using magical or physical attacks).

Any thoughts?

Thank you,
Jerander

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Jerander

...Neither Pentagram nor Force Dome block magic items.

While the text for Force Dome is explicit it stating that it does not block Magic Items, Pentragram doesn't seem to mention Magic Items at all.

I would assume that a Magic item should be treated in the same way as a spell and cannot cross the Pentragram boundary.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by SCAR

I would assume that a Magic item should be treated in the same way as a spell and cannot cross the Pentragram boundary.

That is a reasonable assumption (and the one I lived with for many years...), but since it's not written in the text, then, technically, Pentagram does not block magical items.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Jerander

That is a reasonable assumption (and the one I lived with for many years...), but since it's not written in the text, then, technically, Pentagram does not block magical items.

I do not subscribe to that particular paradigm.

Utter Dome is supposed to block Physical and Magical attacks
Force Dome blocks the physical, Pentagram blocks the magical.

There are times where something not stated leads to an ambiguity, this is not one of those. A little 'common sense' tells us that a Magic Item, particularly a weapon, shouldn't be allowed to pass through an Utter Dome.

Force Dome explicitly allows for Magic Items to pass through it.
Pentragram doesn't make an explicit exception, so treating a magic item as magical, and allowing a Pentagram (and therefore an Utter Dome) to block it, removes the loop hole, without violating any RAW text.

Seems like the sensible option to me.

[Bruno]

I don't see the need to give Pentagram the ability to block enchanted items (although spells cast from enchanted items certainly would be blocked) - with Utter Dome blocking both physical and magical things it is capable of blocking things that are physical and magical, without needing to give extra abilities to Pentagram.

I wouldn't let objects created by magic to go through a pentagram, but that's different from enchanted objects.

It seems pretty simple binary logic to me, but as a programmer I'm obviously biased towards binary logic ;)

Pentagram/Spellwall: Can be bypassed by Physical.
Force (Dome/Wall): Can be bypassed by Magical.

Enchanted objects are: Magic AND Physical, therefore can bypass both.

Utter Dome: Can be bypassed by (NOT Physical) AND (NOT Magical). Enchanted objects are neither NOT Physical nor NOT Magical, therefore they fail the test on two counts - only one failure is necessary for them to be blocked.

In this case, the combination is greater than the sum of the parts, but that seems quite logical to me.

Of course, if your mental model is instead:
Pentagram/Spellwall: Can be bypassed by NOT Magical.
Force (Dome/Wall): Can be bypassed by NOT Physical.

Then enchanted items should be blocked by both spells.

I don't see a situation with internal consistency where enchanted items could be blocked by Pentagram/Spellwall but not Force (Dome/Wall).

[Bruno]

To me, incidentally, spell effects (including Created creatures and objects with durations other than Instant), and "creatures of magic" such as demons and elementals and other things with a Dependency on Mana, are (Magical AND !Physical). Half-demons and half-elementals and whatever might be filed under (Magical AND !Physical) like the exotic parent, or might become (Magical AND Physical) like an enchanted object, or might be (!Magical AND Physical) like the mundane parent. GM's call on whether the properties are additive or exclusive.

Missile spells are Instant but I definitely wouldn't let you carry one through a Pentagram - there just ain't nothin' natural about carrying around 9d-9 lightning balls.

If you have Missile spells blocked by DR (Magic only) then thrown missile spells should also be blocked by Pentagram, but then they should penetrate Force Dome. If you have Missile spells bypass DR (Magic only), then they penetrate Pentagram and are blocked by Force Dome.

In either case, Missile spell effects would still be blocked by an Utter Dome.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I don't see the need to give Pentagram the ability to block enchanted items (although spells cast from enchanted items certainly would be blocked) - with Utter Dome blocking both physical and magical things it is capable of blocking things that are physical and magical, without needing to give extra abilities to Pentagram.

I don't necessarily see that allowing a Pentagram to block Magic Items is giving it extra abilities. Pentagram blocks Magic, a Magic Item is Magic, therefore a Pentagram blocks Magic. Just because the text doesn't explicitly say it blocks Magic Items, doesn't mean that isn't a reasonable interpretation.
Force Dome explictly states Magic Items (even though they are at least in part physical) can pass through it. Pentagram does not have the same explicit exception!

Originally Posted by Bruno

Pentagram/Spellwall: Can be bypassed by Physical.
Force (Dome/Wall): Can be bypassed by Magical.

Enchanted objects are: Magic AND Physical, therefore can bypass both.
..
Of course, if your mental model is instead:
Pentagram/Spellwall: Can be bypassed by NOT Magical.
Force (Dome/Wall): Can be bypassed by NOT Physical.

Then enchanted items should be blocked by both spells.

Where as I see a Wall as Blocking something, so:

Pentagram: Cannot be bypassed by Magical.
Force Dome: Cannot be bypassed by Physical.

The problem for this is that the text for Force Dome explictly allows Magic items (which I agree are both Physical and Magical) to bypass it!

It isn't really worth arguing about - as a GM, pick the interpretation which suits your purposes.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by SCAR

It isn't really worth arguing about - as a GM, pick the interpretation which suits your purposes.

It is however a really common thing to argue over - the analogous argument in Ars Magica has flipped back and forth a couple times between editions.

It basically comes down to a narrative purpose conflict - sometimes you want something that can block the PCs "I win" ability completely, so it can be used to set up a challenge to the PCs. But you sometimes want something with a hole so it's a challenge not an impossiblity, and so you so you can still set up a challenge to the PCs even though they have this defense. In final analysis these are incompatible goals.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by SCAR

I don't necessarily see that allowing a Pentagram to block Magic Items is giving it extra abilities. Pentagram blocks Magic, a Magic Item is Magic, therefore a Pentagram blocks Magic. Just because the text doesn't explicitly say it blocks Magic Items, doesn't mean that isn't a reasonable interpretation.

Then what happens when a person tries to take an enchanted item across a Penatgram boundary? Does it stop short regardless like an enchanted creature? Is there a quick contest like a spell? Why is it one and not the other? Or is it some third method of resolution?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Where as I see a Wall as Blocking something, so:

"Blocking" is just NOT "bypassed by". It's just an inversion of one of the above interpretations.

Originally Posted by SCAR

Pentagram: Cannot be bypassed by Magical.
Force Dome: Cannot be bypassed by Physical.

The problem for this is that the text for Force Dome explictly allows Magic items (which I agree are both Physical and Magical) to bypass it!

For me, that makes it clear that therefore Pentagram does NOT block enchanted items either. *shrug* I'd be just as happy removing that note from Force Dome and having both Pentagram and Force Dome block enchanted items.

Either way, I don't see why having Utter Dome block enchanted objects means that either of Pentagram and Force Dome have to be able to block items. The sum of the two spells blocks all of the above, and therefore is able to catch the hybrid case where neither spell might be able to.