6e Car Wars, what do you want to see - Page 6

kjamma4 · 05-03-2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apache

Most don't.

They aren't much fun when they are so small and flimsy that every single bump on the table or slight breeze/sneeze blows them all over the map.

Not to mention being so small they are hard to handle.

Agreed which is why I've sworn off using the original components.

kjamma4 · 05-03-2012, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

I heard about these dudes that upscaled with hotwheels.

I've got a tackle box filled with Micromachines and when I used to be able to get them at garage sales dirt cheap, I'd cut up the more abused ones to make debris/obstacle counters.

I definitely think Micromachines are the way to go - you get something that is more durable than the original paper counters but you can still play on the kitchen table.

That being said, I also have a bunch of Hotwheels and if you have the space, they are even better than the Micromachines.

ak_aramis · 05-03-2012, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apache

So?

Works for lots of other people. Flames Of War has a wonky scale, as does most of Games Workshop titles (Battlefleet Gothic, W40K, etc).

The idea for 6e should be "fun beer&pretzels boardgame", not "simulation wargame of armed cars." First off, it didn't work in the first 5 editions, and secondly, all the record keeping was tedious in the extreme.

Debris counters, for the love of Pete.

If you like that, go PLAY those games. Those of us who still occasionally play Car Wars want something that links to realistic speeds and handling.

Which is the problem with 3x (1"=5') Scale: at highway and racing speeds, you're needing "feet per turn" of space. A single 45° turn per game-turn at 60MPH defines an octagon almost 44" across. 3'8". That's bigger than many kitchen tables. Heck, it needs two standard folding conference tables (36x72") to be doable - fine for convention and in-store play, but not good for homes, and lousy for dorms.

If SJG is aiming solely for grogs, then convention-centric and arena-limited is good enough.

But if it's to be more than a splash in the pan, consideration for more reasonable play-space is of value.

Apache · 05-03-2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

If you like that, go PLAY those games. Those of us who still occasionally play Car Wars want something that links to realistic speeds and handling.

Then be prepared for disappointment. "Realistic speed and handling", as you note, leads to huge battle maps/playing areas, and if you claim to want 'realism', in real life all you need to wreck even a heavily armored car is just a .50 M2 HMG with SLAP ammo. Or a ram plate. We are talking about a rather silly game inspired by Mad Max movies, some short-stories, and downtown Austin traffic. If you want 'realism' you are barking up the wrong tree.

Darkwind:2044 is basically Car Wars Online (turn-based, etc), but I'd still like to see a CW reboot ala OGRE.

Buzzardo · 05-03-2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apache

Then be prepared for disappointment. "Realistic speed and handling", as you note, leads to huge battle maps/playing areas, and if you claim to want 'realism', in real life all you need to wreck even a heavily armored car is just a .50 M2 HMG with SLAP ammo. Or a ram plate. We are talking about a rather silly game inspired by Mad Max movies, some short-stories, and downtown Austin traffic. If you want 'realism' you are barking up the wrong tree.

Darkwind:2044 is basically Car Wars Online (turn-based, etc), but I'd still like to see a CW reboot ala OGRE.

CW was based on Houston traffic, actually.

No matter, though, In the intervening years, Austin traffic caught up to Houston's level of nasty. Now we have the most congested traffic of any city this size. A friend who recently moved here from Houston says it easier to get around there than here. Le Sigh.

Good point on the realism. Not much of that in CW. That doesn't stop it being fun, though.

Apache · 05-03-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzardo

CW was based on Houston traffic, actually.

No matter, though, In the intervening years, Austin traffic caught up to Houston's level of nasty. Now we have the most congested traffic of any city this size. A friend who recently moved here from Houston says it easier to get around there than here. Le Sigh.

Good point on the realism. Not much of that in CW. That doesn't stop it being fun, though.

Having driven in DFW, Houston, San Antonio, and Austin, only Austin traffic seriously makes me want to mount a .50 cal on my hood. And a minedropper in the back.

Well.....ok, a flamethrower would be more fun/satisfying......

Fred Skin · 05-03-2012, 10:33 PM

Going through my CW stuff and playing a quick game tonight made me come up with:

Full color maps with no grids. I like a post-apocalypse look, but I reckon it depends on what type of setting 6E would have (road/town combat vs. arena combat or both.) Whatever you do, do not reuse the same maps, counters, or art from all of the previous editions.

1/64th scale might be too big, unless the movement rates are scaled down to prevent running out of map space or having to use an entire room for combat.

I liked the simplicity of the 5E rules. Players shouldn't get bogged down in looking up rules. Game play should be more about fun than realism.

Vehicle design should be relatively simple without a lot of number crunching or an absurd amount of options. Players shouldn't get bogged down in vehicle design.

swordtart · 05-04-2012, 12:55 AM

If you want 1/64th scale you don't need them in the box.

If you want figures in the box it makes more sense to have them in original scale (on correctly sized bases) as then you can have a reasonable sized arena that will fit in a normal house. You can also be a bit less prissy about the details.

The movement rules were not the complicated part it was constantly looking up the divergence from the basic rules introduced by ever more wacky bits of equipment. This could be easily resolved by making the rules wholly consistent and putting the divergent equipment rules on equipmnet cards that could be put on the table if that equipment was in play and left in the box if not. One card per piece of equipment and each card with all the rules wholly self contained on it. Uncle Als expansions would then consist of packs of cards with new equipment. Include some blanks so people can add their own.

I like the 3 phase movement as it allowed only 3 maneuvres a turn/second (which if you are talking realism is much better). Your are correct that a 45 degree turn in a single phase is too much, try that in real life and you won't need to worry about being shot at. The fewer the phases (and therefore the longer in time each phase represents) the more realistic it becomes.

ColBosch · 05-04-2012, 04:31 AM

I think the main dissonance here is that Car Wars means very different things to different people. I loved the universe for its roleplaying potential: an almost post-apocalyptic America where everyone refused to give up, they just strapped guns on their vehicles and kept on living their lives. So, I always liked playing open world games; my Crash City map and highway sections saw far more use than any of my arenas, most of which remained folded. This also ties into scale. 5e was okay for arena combat, but would've been completely insane for the old Midville scenarios. Of course, 5e also looked better and played faster, which would've helped games with 40+ active units involved...

Ultimately, I think I do want to see a new edition of the game. I'd like it to be the classic scale, but with the streamlined rules of 5e. I'd want to see miniatures, though not too many: consolidate them down to weight class and cast them in different colors for different players. I'd like the game to cover both "sandbox" and arena games. I want roleplaying to be directly integrated into the core game and compatible with GURPS. I'd like both a rulebook and a "universe" book showing how Autoduel America has changed and evolved since the old AADA Road Atlases (and I'd like those on W23). I'd like to see continuing support, both sourcebooks and boxed sets with new maps and minis.

So, basically, I'd like to see Car Wars go the route of the current version of BattleTech, combined with a bit of Memoir '44 or Zombies! for boxed expansions.

kjamma4 · 05-04-2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordtart

I like the 3 phase movement as it allowed only 3 maneuvres a turn/second

That is not how the rules work. You get to move three times per turn/second but the number of maneuvers you get to do per phase is based upon your speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordtart

The fewer the phases (and therefore the longer in time each phase represents) the more realistic it becomes.

Also not true. The longer the time each phase represents, the greater the scale distance your vehicle moves WHILE ALL OTHER VEHICLES STAND STILL. Not very realistic.

Obviously if you had a near-infinite number of phases, it would more simulate actual movement. However, you would be bogged down by moving your vehicle fractional portions of an inch and playability would suffer.

The trick is to balance "realism" and playability. Some say that 10-phases does this, some say that 3-phases does this. I'm personally in the camp that 5-phases is the sweet spot.

To be honest, I don't think a Car Wars kickstarter is going to reach the level that the Ogre one has. However, if you are talking $100K, it would not be hard to get a total rewrite of the rules that offered options for 3/5/10 (or 0) phases per turn, was scale independent/covered each scale, and also had increasing complexity.

Why try to make a subset of fans happy when you can make a super-deluxe edition that will make all (or at least a larger subset !!!) happy?

05-03-2012, 10:33 PM	#57
Fred Skin Join Date: Jun 2005	Re: 6e Car Wars, what do you want to see Going through my CW stuff and playing a quick game tonight made me come up with: Full color maps with no grids. I like a post-apocalypse look, but I reckon it depends on what type of setting 6E would have (road/town combat vs. arena combat or both.) Whatever you do, do not reuse the same maps, counters, or art from all of the previous editions. 1/64th scale might be too big, unless the movement rates are scaled down to prevent running out of map space or having to use an entire room for combat. I liked the simplicity of the 5E rules. Players shouldn't get bogged down in looking up rules. Game play should be more about fun than realism. Vehicle design should be relatively simple without a lot of number crunching or an absurd amount of options. Players shouldn't get bogged down in vehicle design.

05-04-2012, 12:55 AM	#58
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: 6e Car Wars, what do you want to see If you want 1/64th scale you don't need them in the box. If you want figures in the box it makes more sense to have them in original scale (on correctly sized bases) as then you can have a reasonable sized arena that will fit in a normal house. You can also be a bit less prissy about the details. The movement rules were not the complicated part it was constantly looking up the divergence from the basic rules introduced by ever more wacky bits of equipment. This could be easily resolved by making the rules wholly consistent and putting the divergent equipment rules on equipmnet cards that could be put on the table if that equipment was in play and left in the box if not. One card per piece of equipment and each card with all the rules wholly self contained on it. Uncle Als expansions would then consist of packs of cards with new equipment. Include some blanks so people can add their own. I like the 3 phase movement as it allowed only 3 maneuvres a turn/second (which if you are talking realism is much better). Your are correct that a 45 degree turn in a single phase is too much, try that in real life and you won't need to worry about being shot at. The fewer the phases (and therefore the longer in time each phase represents) the more realistic it becomes.

05-04-2012, 04:31 AM	#59
ColBosch Join Date: May 2007	Re: 6e Car Wars, what do you want to see I think the main dissonance here is that Car Wars means very different things to different people. I loved the universe for its roleplaying potential: an almost post-apocalyptic America where everyone refused to give up, they just strapped guns on their vehicles and kept on living their lives. So, I always liked playing open world games; my Crash City map and highway sections saw far more use than any of my arenas, most of which remained folded. This also ties into scale. 5e was okay for arena combat, but would've been completely insane for the old Midville scenarios. Of course, 5e also looked better and played faster, which would've helped games with 40+ active units involved... Ultimately, I think I do want to see a new edition of the game. I'd like it to be the classic scale, but with the streamlined rules of 5e. I'd want to see miniatures, though not too many: consolidate them down to weight class and cast them in different colors for different players. I'd like the game to cover both "sandbox" and arena games. I want roleplaying to be directly integrated into the core game and compatible with GURPS. I'd like both a rulebook and a "universe" book showing how Autoduel America has changed and evolved since the old AADA Road Atlases (and I'd like those on W23). I'd like to see continuing support, both sourcebooks and boxed sets with new maps and minis. So, basically, I'd like to see Car Wars go the route of the current version of BattleTech, combined with a bit of Memoir '44 or Zombies! for boxed expansions.