6e Car Wars, what do you want to see

[J. Roberts]

Originally Posted by swordtart

What is this obsession with balance?

In my opinion, it's like D&D's "Feat Tax." Some options seem so good that you almost can't afford not to take them. It reduces variety, generates too many of the same kinds of designs. Ever see a car with an RR that doesn't have HEAT ammo? A single-weapon design that doesn't have an SWC?

I probably say this in about every other post, but Car Wars lost me when every duel turned into who could get their 12d6 salvo off first. Now, that's on my group, but try telling a bunch of 16-year olds that they actually should scale back the game and not use every single gadget out there.

[J. Roberts]

Originally Posted by juris

In other words - Scott didn't care so much about balance and just figured people would house rule broken stuff that made the game "less fun". I just disagree. You do not, so enjoy your Death Ray ;)

Yeah, the idea of "house rules" just wasn't in my group's comprehension. Not follow the rules of the game as handed down from on high? Sacrilege!

[MongolHorde]

You know, from reading some of the posts, and thinking back to my days when I played CW (vehicle designer wars, really, didn't actually get the maps and counters out much,) I wonder if some of these complaints come from allowing players too much money. Playing in too high of a division? (I only recall up to Div20, then it went to "unlimited," did that ever change?)

Maybe restricting arena duels to Div5-15 might tone down the "ultimate weapon" issue a bit.

After all (pulls out UACfH) a fully loaded RR w/HEAT and a SWC is $2525, or about half a Div5 vehicle. Now, if someone did manage to put this in a Div5 car, yes, they'd be able to lay the hurt on someone, but I really doubt they'd be able to take a lot of damage themselves. Having a big gun only works well if you've got the armor to survive getting hit.

Now, in the new edition, maybe base the cost of a targeting comp off the number of weapons it's going to control, and how much of a bonus you want. So a single weapon comp, with a +6 to-hit might run $10000, or the same unit could control 6 weapons for +1 each. Yes, those numbers came out of my smart part, which I am currently sitting on...
:-)

Jason

[kjamma4]

There definitely is a different vibe from using Div 5 cars and Unlimited.

At the higher divisions, your offense quickly outweighs the defense of your opponents.

[swordtart]

My experience is that 15 year-old boys are not interested in balance. They want a big killy thing that Cr*ps over their friends. Any house rules they come up with will pander to their own testoterone fuelled childishness. They will however twist any official rules in the same way and munchkin up their stuff to the same end. Fun is driving your friends into the ground. Sadly many of those 15 year-old boys grow into men who behave like 15-year-old boys for the rest of their lives.

Tournaments fuel this idiotic behaviour and CW bought into it big time back in the day. GW has now monopolised out the "win by buying the latest rulebook advantage" franchise and SGJ has moved on to parody it instead (but maybe it's not such a parody).

As an older gamer long past idiocy (or perhaps being a more refined idiot) I am quite capable and willing to introduce house rules that do not add hyper-pulse-x-ray-laser-rockets. I want to add rules that make the game more than a 10 second zap fight. I want nuanced weapon rules that are more than making something +1. I also want those rules to be harmonised so that anyone with half a brain could instantly work out what they need to hit without digging through piles of suppliments.

My idea of fun is a well constructed scenario with plausible combats whether they are balanced or not. Indeed most films revolve around unbalanced conflict. Balance comes in the longer term rather than in each fight. Balance is a chimera anyway as there is always some jerk from the testosterone generation who will pull cheesy combinations and damn the plot.

What is fun is what you continue to play, it could be cheesy or it more developed, that may come about because of house rules or ins-spite of them.

Pragmatically a games company is hardly going to champion house rules because if you go that way, why would anyone buy your latest suppliment?

[ammulder]

I guess I sort of felt that while there were some standout weapons or combinations (ATG+APFSDS or whatever), there were often enough possibilities that there were no guarantees. It's unlikely someone could defend against large-die attacks, fire attacks, dropped weapon attacks, crazy-accurate (possibly tire) attacks, ram attacks, highly maneuverable opponents, jump-jet-with-underbody-weapon attacks, visibility attacks, and etc. all in the same design. Yes there are often defenses, but if you take them all, you're sort of hamstringing your own budget for offense.

So I did feel there was a bit of a rock-paper-scissors element, but that was fine, because it took the game beyond "every load up APFSDS and let's whale on each other", and it was fun exploring some of the other options. Particularly as we varied the arenas and victory conditions and you got to work through the tactical implications anew.

All that said, there are certainly some redundancies that could be addressed. People mention RRs without HEAT, but honestly, I've never been tempted to use an MG outside Chassis and Crossbow... :)

[MattV]

[QUOTE=swordtart;1413891]
Tournaments fuel this idiotic behaviour QUOTE]

I agree. Gaming now adays isnt' the gaming we had back when. Back in the days people were making up incredibly creative scenarios with plot twists and tactical desicions. Now walking through a game store I see gamers lineing up two equally pointed out armies that just go straight and then commence with rolling dice for an hour.....

[kjamma4]

Originally Posted by MattV

Gaming now adays isnt' the gaming we had back when.

And get off my lawn you darn kids! :)

[juris]

Originally Posted by kjamma4

And get off my lawn you darn kids! :)

Lol - Grognard say what? - Laughing at yourself is the first step to recovery from this terrible affliction ;)

[OgreMkV]

TL;DR

But I will offer a few things I'd like to see...

1) New car classes: SUVs (small, medium, and large), light trucks, super heavy trucks, etc. SUVs kind of radically change the nature of the car design. There's room for driver, two gunners and still have more weapons than could be fired each turn. And even a light SUV should be able to handle a 2 or 3 space turret.

2) Controlled out-of-control maneuvers: drifting, controlled fishtails, forced slides, etc. I can do this in my car now, why shouldn't a well trained driver be able to force the rear to slide around another 30 degrees? And doing this without major damage to the tires.

3) Slightly more realistic weapons: Yeah, yeah generic 1d6 MG, 2d6 MG, 3d6 cannon. But a 7.62 minigun should easily fit in a car, even with a thousand rounds of ammo. I'd also like to see heavier guns, with reduced arcs. Like a 35mm cannon (say 4d6 or 5d6) with a reduced front arc. Works well with drifters...

4) A slight revision of the handling class system to remove the negative numbers. IMO, if your handling goes negative, then you pretty much guaranteed to lose control. Perhaps even a speed based modifier to handling. It's really hard to lose control at 20 mph. It's a lot easier at 80mph.