And ye shall know the Truth ...

[Jason]

Originally Posted by DBloch2012

I do not understand this "human-centric" view of In Nomine. Humans cannot affect the Symphony in any way, shape, or form: they cannot resonate with it, they cannot cause Dissonance with it, they do not make Discord with it.

(snip)

On that note, a lot of people also seem to be giving humanity a lot of meaning and purpose where there is none. Such as in the recent Tether thread. What makes humans so special?

Actually, humans have quite a lot of power in the canonic rules as written, particularly in the Game Master's Guide and Liber Castellorum.

• Human belief alone creates most Tethers (with the exception of "natural" Tethers like hurricanes to the Wind and volcanoes to Fire); celestial interference and disturbance actually mucks this up.
• Human actions and beliefs also cause Essence to accrue in Tethers, which is the same Essence that Superiors then distribute to your player characters.
• The collective human consciousness is also what directly determines the relative strength of Words, which has a major impact on power relations in Heaven and Hell.
• Humans (and animals) are also the only "native" creatures in all realms of the Symphony, able to act without causing disturbance on Earth, in the Marches, and in Heaven alike.
• Humans are the only beings capable of performing sorcery. The Corporeal Player's Guide speculates a bit on why this is; IIRC, it may link it to humans other innate "powers," such as Tether creation, positing that sorcery is an extension of humans' natural ability to shape the Symphony through their Will.

I don't have an opinion on the Babel thing one way or the other at present, but I could certainly imagine ways to fit it into the In Nomine cosmology (even if not entirely literally, as was cleverly done with the "Eden experiment"). Perhaps Babel was an early Infernal Tether (maybe to Pride, a Word which Lucifer reserves out of personal vanity?). The Archangels and/or Demon Princes may have battled over it or rallied to strike it down, with the unintended effect of damaging the way communication works in the entire Symphony, or at least among all humans in the area.

[Rocket Man]

Don't forget also, in listing humanity's Symphonic impact:

* It's the collective consciousness of humanity that created and maintains the Marches, aka the ethereal dreamworld. The dream-spirits of that realm have their birth in human imagination and gain or lose power as their stories become more or less compelling and enduring.
==========

For what it's worth, in In Nomine as written, Lucifer doesn't understand why things are so human-centric either.

In the "canon" version of history, his early dispute with God was because God said humans were special creations who should be left alone by the celestials; Lucifer didn't consider them to be so great and felt celestials should be free to interfere at will -- for mankind's own good, of course. ;) The result was the Eden Experiment (which Lucifer contaminated) and, shortly after, the War.

That said, in the official IN continuity, Lucifer and his forces may owe their freedom to humanity's unique position within the Sympony. It was Lilith who freed the demons from Hell, creating the first infernal Tether to do so. And after the liberated demons began messing with humanity, God gave permission for the angels to act in its defense ... but quietly and subtlely, so as to preserve humanity's free will.

Which is part of why the War is so often fought from the shadows.

[Whitelaughter]

related thought:
the Blessed don't need to learn Angelic; when they turn up in Heaven they just 'know' it. If it's hardwired in to humans the way it is to Celestials, then the decision to lie/tell the truth is probably *thought* in Angelic, rather than in the local language. And since you can't lie in Angelic, the Seraphim are probably just hearing the Angelic thoughts behind the corporeal words.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by robkelk

I think the Flood is canon - at least, something happened to kill off the Nephilim and many of the Children of the Grigori, and I think the Flood was that "something". (It's also a popular fan excuse to explain why Oannes doesn't have a Cathedral remaining in Heaven, but fan explanations aren't canon.) Of course, like Eden, it didn't necessarily happen the way it was described in the Bible.

Canon is silent about Babel. But I don't know whether that means "it didn't happen" or "it's Canon Doubt and Uncertainty for the GM to fill in if necessary"...

I don't remember that about the flood. Reference?

And if Babel isn't canon, it can't be used against the argument that Seraphic resonance isn't language-dependent. Might be worth its own thread, that. Its potential as a Tether (or as a "battlefield" of the War before War really took its current form). Someone make that thread.

[William]

Let's try this another way.

You can't lie in Angelic.

Humans can lie.

Therefore, a Seraph resonating a human who has just lied cannot possibly experience what the human has just said in Angelic.

-----

Possibility: the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Language shapes concept, and so what the human has uttered would be a different statement entirely in any other language. What they said was what they said in that language, and no other.

-----

For meta-game reasons, Seraphim characters shouldn't be able to resonate every speaker they come across and get a free pass on comprehending every corporeal language. You want to speak Cantonese, spend the points on Cantonese.

-----

Finally, however, if you want Seraphim to be able to do this, go ahead. We promise that the Canon Police will not come and beat down your door.

(Note: Asmodeus actually has some of these. They tend to be young, 7- and 8-Force demons with serious Earth-adaptation issues. If they burn a Vessel in an argument over any given canon, however, Asmodeus will not replace it. Unless they were defending the position that Greedo shot first.)

[tHEhERETIC]

I've played with this resonance in my game and had no confusion on it at all, even with polyglot NPC's. When the character is lying in a foreign language, I tell the seraph "He's lying." I figure that truth/falsehood/Symphony is like music and the words he's speaking are lyrics--and the angel knows a lie because the guy is singing off-key. Higher CD's are powerful in that they say what the Truth is, so in a very vague way they are translating what the guy didn't say.

CD 2--and mind you, I'm reading an unrepentant 1st edition--"which statement he thinks is most false" will give the angel a summary translation of one part of what was said. This doesn't strike me as overpowered.
CD4 seems like a giveaway, but I read it as only working when the guy chose to lie in the first place. If your subject told the truth, all you'll get is "Yep, it's all true. In Turkish."
CD6 yeah, ignores the language barrier. I can't explain the theory there, I just find it a plausible result.

A smart demon will tell the Seraph the truth in an obscure language and watch the angel get upset at the lack of lies. Oh, comedy!

[DBloch2012]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

For what it's worth, in In Nomine as written, Lucifer doesn't understand why things are so human-centric either.

In the "canon" version of history, his early dispute with God was because God said humans were special creations who should be left alone by the celestials; Lucifer didn't consider them to be so great and felt celestials should be free to interfere at will -- for mankind's own good, of course. ;) The result was the Eden Experiment (which Lucifer contaminated) and, shortly after, the War.

I find this is very interesting, because it's also what the Qur'an gives as the reason for the Fall of the Islamic counterpart of Lucifer.

Originally Posted by (Qur'an 7:12)

"What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" Allah asked.
“I am better than him! You created me from fire, and You created him from clay.” Iblis said.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by William

Let's try this another way.
Possibility: the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.

That's actually a pretty interesting argument. However, I'd say the presence of the Symphony as an overarching connection between all Creation sidesteps the hypothesis. Seraphim can use their resonance equally well on angels, humans, ethereals, and demons (well, except Balseraphs), who would certainly think differently under Whorfianism.

For meta-game reasons, Seraphim characters shouldn't be able to resonate every speaker they come across and get a free pass on comprehending every corporeal language. You want to speak Cantonese, spend the points on Cantonese.

Again, I don't understand this "issue" at all. Only on high CD does a Seraph get information, and it is limited to the Truth about what the person said. A Seraph cannot turn his resonance on full power and wander around a country that does not share his language operating as normal. For one thing, that courts Infernal Interventions, or the kind of failure that disables the resonance. And if no one can understand HIM, all the Truth he's going to get out of people's statements are "this is the way to the American consulate" or "he REALLY doesn't understand you" or "he wants to know why you keep talking to him over and over" or similar things. Putting points into a language, or using the Song of Tongues, are the only ways for a celestial to interface with humans speaking another language.

Finally, however, if you want Seraphim to be able to do this, go ahead. We promise that the Canon Police will not come and beat down your door.

Wait, it is canon that Seraphic resonance is blocked by language barriers? I thought it was just the "generally-held position." Does anyone have a reference?

I've played with this resonance in my game and had no confusion on it at all, even with polyglot NPC's. <long snip>

This is exactly how I see it working. TheHeretic, high five.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

I don't remember that about the flood. Reference?

My bad - I misremembered. The Timeline in the Game Master's Guide says that David and Uriel's angels killed off the Nephallim... so, unless it was a metaphorical flood of blood, it wasn't The Flood that killed them.

[William]

Originally Posted by robkelk

My bad - I misremembered. The Timeline in the Game Master's Guide says that David and Uriel's angels killed off the Nephallim... so, unless it was a metaphorical flood of blood, it wasn't The Flood that killed them.

Right, the Flood is definitely non-canon in In Nomine. The GMG timeline jibes with standard geologic history. The Noahic Flood would by definition be a cataclysymic event, and it isn't listed there. The physical impossibility of preserving the Earth's ecosystem in an ark against a global flood (Songs or not, drowning every tree on North America will render the continent barren, and drowning the Brazilian and African rainforests would render the world uninhabitable) also explains that it didn't occur.