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Old 08-17-2014, 03:11 AM   #1
valerio.crini
 
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Default Being creative with Phantom Flame

Hallo,
I'm trying to create a illusionist with some "firepower" (also if it's just a illusion ).
It seems that Phantom Flame could add some of dynamism to the illusionist grimoire in the sense that can trick victim into believe that some damage has been inflicted.

The problem is that i cannot translate the following spell description into something that's "usable"

Quote:
Creates an area of imaginary flame.
Those nearby feel heat (and pain, if they
touch it); items inside appear to burn.
However, the flame does not spread,
and does no real damage. Even the pain
it creates subsides to a tingling after the
first shock.
Should I inflict burning damage as per B433 and then after a few second remove the damage or there is some creative use for this spell that I cannot understand right now?
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:52 PM   #2
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

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Originally Posted by valerio.crini View Post
Should I inflict burning damage as per B433 and then after a few second remove the damage or there is some creative use for this spell that I cannot understand right now?
Despite its pedigree, I'd rather play Phantom Flame as strictly an Illusion spell.

I think the 'damage' is best treated as apparent to the senses only, as it fades so quickly. It's probably safe to roll and have it cause shock as normal.
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Old 08-17-2014, 04:22 PM   #3
valerio.crini
 
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

It makes sense, only temporary shock damage, but it's not too expensive the energy cost? Energy spent is equal to number of hexes affected so if I want to have a illusionary flame barrier I would spend six fatigue points for ... only illusionary shock damage.
I understand that this magic can be very useful against low IQ enemies e.g. animals but quite useless against intelligent adversaries.
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Old 08-17-2014, 06:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

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Originally Posted by valerio.crini View Post
It makes sense, only temporary shock damage, but it's not too expensive the energy cost? Energy spent is equal to number of hexes affected so if I want to have a illusionary flame barrier I would spend six fatigue points for ... only illusionary shock damage.
I understand that this magic can be very useful against low IQ enemies e.g. animals but quite useless against intelligent adversaries.
Do you find that intelligent adversaries willingly plunge themselves into fire? I don't think that's normally seen as 'intelligent'.

I suspect the intended function of this spell is to provide an illusionary fire which is convincing at close range, the way purely audiovisual illusions wouldn't be. Not to provide a way of giving people real burns with fake fire.
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Old 08-17-2014, 06:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Not to provide a way of giving people real burns with fake fire.
Indeed, you wind up with sort of an ontological problem if your magic produces real burns, yet you want to call it an illusion. If it acts just like "real" fire in all ways, what makes it not real fire? GURPS is mostly about effects, and lets you supply the fluff text, so this mage might as well just take Create Fire and say that it's it's actually illusionary -- just a really good illusion.
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Old 08-17-2014, 06:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Indeed, you wind up with sort of an ontological problem if your magic produces real burns, yet you want to call it an illusion. If it acts just like "real" fire in all ways, what makes it not real fire? GURPS is mostly about effects, and lets you supply the fluff text, so this mage might as well just take Create Fire and say that it's it's actually illusionary -- just a really good illusion.
Illusory magic that produces real effects so long as the subject believes it's real is a thing you see.

Illusory magic that produces real results regardless, yeah, has a bit of a definitional issue.
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Old 08-17-2014, 06:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Indeed, you wind up with sort of an ontological problem if your magic produces real burns, yet you want to call it an illusion. If it acts just like "real" fire in all ways, what makes it not real fire? GURPS is mostly about effects, and lets you supply the fluff text, so this mage might as well just take Create Fire and say that it's it's actually illusionary -- just a really good illusion.
Well you'd want to change the prerequisites. Sounds like a Magical Style type problem.
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Old 08-18-2014, 09:56 AM   #8
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Indeed, you wind up with sort of an ontological problem if your magic produces real burns, yet you want to call it an illusion.
Illusions usually have problems like that. If it's an illusion, does it produce real light (i.e. can you see things by its light the illusionist didn't know were present). You feel heat, so what if you are dying of cold? Can you feel both hot and cold at the same time?

Rules for magical illusions often make no sense. A magical "illusion" with real physical effects isn't at all out of idiom. But sure, if it works the same way, just rename the Create Fire spell, change its prerequisite to Phantom Flame or Perfect Illusion and call it done.
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Illusions usually have problems like that. If it's an illusion, does it produce real light (i.e. can you see things by its light the illusionist didn't know were present). You feel heat, so what if you are dying of cold? Can you feel both hot and cold at the same time?

Rules for magical illusions often make no sense. A magical "illusion" with real physical effects isn't at all out of idiom. But sure, if it works the same way, just rename the Create Fire spell, change its prerequisite to Phantom Flame or Perfect Illusion and call it done.
Officially, I believe that illusions do create light, although I have a problem with that notion. Given the nature of Phantom Flame, that's not really a problem for me.

Curiously, despite the prereq tree allowing for its purchase after Simple Illusion, Phantom Flame was not treated as part of the Illusion College in my old 2E copy of Magic.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:07 PM   #10
Lia Valenth
 
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Default Re: Being creative with Phantom Flame

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Illusions usually have problems like that. If it's an illusion, does it produce real light (i.e. can you see things by its light the illusionist didn't know were present). You feel heat, so what if you are dying of cold? Can you feel both hot and cold at the same time?

Rules for magical illusions often make no sense. A magical "illusion" with real physical effects isn't at all out of idiom. But sure, if it works the same way, just rename the Create Fire spell, change its prerequisite to Phantom Flame or Perfect Illusion and call it done.
I suspect this is why GURPS has the Illusion magic and Creation magic as a single college. The difference between making an illusion and a creation is a very fine line.

There are ways to make it easy, such as saying illusions are purely mental (thus the illusionary light only illuminates other illusions, you can feel heat but will still freeze to death, and can feel both hot and cold at the same time [probably causing severe pain or stunning due to confusing the brain], as it is all in the subjects head), but that is not how GURPS assumes illusions work at base.

You could also assume illusions are physical constructs, but limit what they are made of. In example GURPS: Powers uses constructs of light and sound, basically holograms. Light/Sound constructs would not be able to make Phantom Flame (because it cannot create heat) though.

Could combine them - constructs of light and sound, while touch is purely mental...but it is then getting complicated again, as how much force can you apply before realizing your hand is going through the wall, or you are falling off the bridge?
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Last edited by Lia Valenth; 08-18-2014 at 10:10 PM. Reason: reread GURPS: Powers
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