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Old 03-20-2008, 06:41 PM   #11
Stephen Day
 
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonsbane
Well, if you are aware of not seeking internal consistency, then you will do whatever you like most ;)

No problem with that.

(My situation is, most times the end result of what is internally consistent is by far superior to my own initial tastes.)
I know what internal consistency is. The main Infinite Worlds book makes it clear that there is one Atziluth, one Briah and one Yetzirah. All of the Infinte Worlds exist in the mists of the Material Realm. In my campaign all Magic comes from these internal realms.

What exactly is not consistant in your opinion?
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:21 PM   #12
carllarson
 
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

I'll have to look into it more, but I'm not sure that the IW writeup of the Cabal's world connected the other planes to all of the Infinitiverse, but rather somewhat perpendicular to them, and connected only through the Material of the Cabal world.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:38 PM   #13
Stephen Day
 
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by carllarson
I'll have to look into it more, but I'm not sure that the IW writeup of the Cabal's world connected the other planes to all of the Infinitiverse, but rather somewhat perpendicular to them, and connected only through the Material of the Cabal world.
Infinite Worlds states:

"According to the Cabal's cosmology, there may be infinite worlds, but there are only four realms that matter."

The text then goes into the description of the four realms. It says that the material realm contains the infinite worlds and that Yetzirah is ("above" or "inside" the Material Realm, touching all worlds equally).

There is a little bit of interpretation involved and I admit that my interpretation will probably differ from that of others. :)
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:20 AM   #14
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

I'm coming at this from the standpoint of integrating the Cabal into my current Infinite Worlds setup. In my campaign, the Cabal has no interest in worlds with no mana, and may not be able to reach them, but they are likely to turn up anywhere there is mana. The Infinite Worlds are all part of Assiah, and are connected through Yetzirah (but the barrier is impermeable on no-mana worlds). Thus, for example, while Oberon withdrew from contact with Assiah in most realities, some parallels may still have a corporeal faerie. I've never felt that Yetzirah had to be any more internally consistent than a dream, which makes it the perfect buffer between the One True Briah and the infinite variety of Assiah.

Borrowing a leaf from Technomancer, I regard mana level as related to the permeability of interworld membranes, particularly the Assiah/Yetzirah barrier. Spells are thought-constructs pulled through, with variable difficulty, from the dream realms. But then, I generally prefer a variant approach to magic.

(In my Cabal campaign, the PCs slipped through to Reich-5 without realizing it one foggy London night, but were guided back by one of their ultors before anything really came of it. They only afterwards figured out that those fellows in the SS uniforms weren't simply devoid of good taste.)
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

(This post consists of at least two parts. It continues in the next)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Day
I know what internal consistency is. The main Infinite Worlds book makes it clear that there is one Atziluth, one Briah and one Yetzirah. All of the Infinte Worlds exist in the mists of the Material Realm. In my campaign all Magic comes from these internal realms.

What exactly is not consistant in your opinion?
I'm talking about what the Kabbalah's doctrine says about this.

First of all, the issue here isn't entirely your invention. It is already stated in the very Infinite Worlds book, by saying this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Day
Infinite Worlds states: "According to the Cabal's cosmology, there may be infinite worlds, but there are only four realms that matter."
The text then goes into the description of the four realms. It says that the material realm contains the infinite worlds and that Yetzirah is ("above" or "inside" the Material Realm, touching all worlds equally).
(IW, p. 69).

However, this being officially printed doesn't make it more consistent nor accurate . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Day
What exactly is not consistant in your opinion?
The inconsistency here is very basic.

One of the key points here is: within Kabbalah's doctrine, the corporeal world of Assiah only can be one, excluding any multiplicity of them, not being compatible with the assumptions of Infinite Worlds.

This is the Quick & Dirty (but however a bit long) explanation:

In Kabbalah, the intersection between the perpendicular Chain of Being (or "The Tree of Life") and a horizontal plane (a determination of a state of the being) is what provides existence to "a" world, in this case the corporeal one of Assiah, identified with the tenth Sephirot, Malkhut or Kingdom. Both elements -vertical and horizontal- interact as essence and substance (or the chinese Yang and yin), giving birth to that state of existence.


The Chain of Being or Tree of Life


.............----------..........|
.............----------..........|
.............----------..........|
.............----------..........|
.............----------..........|

.............-----------------x-------------------
..............----------.........|
..............----------.........|
...............----------........|
...............----------........|
...............----------........|
...............----------........|


(The x is the intersection or ontological point giving birth to a world by the interplay of the two cosmological principles. That point is also called "Heart of the world".)


Put in other words: any world, material or not, needs the Tree of Life (1) crossing trough the very center of its horizontal plane (a single ontological point lacking of any spatial dimensions) (2) for the divine energies and intellect of the Chain providing and determining its existence.

This said, we have the Tree of Life as the emanation of the Absolute, creating such emanation a single Assiah, Malkhut or Kingdom, being this one the synthesis of the entire Tree of Life.

So, an "infinite multiplicity" of corporeal or material worlds would imply an "infinite multiplicity" of horizontal planes arranged at the same height in the Tree of Life . . ., an "infinite multiplicity" of ontological intersections . . . and thus, a "infinite multiplicity" of Absolutes for each "one" crossing trough the center of each corporeal world . . . , what makes no sense because the Absolute only can be "One", indeed "The Only One" (3).

This is the fundamental inconsistency.

Only one material, corporeal world is possible from the viewpoint of Kabbalah's doctrine. Divergency from that doctrine would be regarded as "unorthodox" or put in other words, plainly wrong.

Moreover: because the Absolute (the domain of Atziluth), the immanifested origin of the Tree (4) is truly "Infinite" (beyond the quantitative meaning of the term), there can't be "Infinite Earths" (being very similar or almost equal between them by sharing most traits) because that "would force" the Absolute to the repetitive manifestation again and again of the same posibilities contained in its universal possibility . . . and that would imply scarcity, poorness, exhaustion, limitation or lack of plenitude in the very Infinite . . . And any limitation in the Infinite is inconsistent, too.

This said, here are some representations.


I) The Kabbalistic perpendicular chain or Tree of Life (in yellow color) crossing trough different states of the being (horizontal lines), or worlds:



.............Atziluth

......Atziluth |
......Atziluth---
......Atziluth |
......Atziluth---
......Atziluth |
......Atziluth---
......Atziluth |
......Atziluth---
......Atziluth |
......Atziluth---
......Atziluth |
......Atziluth. . .



II) Representation of the science fiction assumption of the "many worlds" or "parallel worlds", being too the foundament of Infinite Worlds. Of course, in this view doesn't exists the Tree of Life in any way:


Assiah..... . .....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....--- ....---....---....---.... . . .

(this post continues in the next)
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

(Part II, continues from the earlier post)


III) Representation of the inconsistency resulting from the combination of Kabbalistic cosmology with Infinite Earths (= Worlds) hypothesis. The absurd of "an infinite number of 'Atziluths'" or any plurality of "The Only and True God ab intra" should be obvious (5):


Atziluth...."God"...."God"...."God"...."God" ...."God"...."God"...."God"...."God"...."God" ...."God"...."God"...."God"...."God"...."God" ...."God" Atziluth__....|ziluth...|ziluth...|ziluth...|ziluth..|ziluth..|ziluth...|ziluth....|ziluth._|ziluth.|ziluth...|ziluth|ziluth..zilu|ziluth...|ziluth....|ziluth._
Briah... . . ---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....--- ....---....---....---....--- . . .
Atziluth__....|ziluth...|ziluth...|ziluth...|ziluth..|ziluth..|ziluth...|ziluth....|ziluth._|ziluth.|ziluth...|ziluth|ziluth..zilu|ziluth...|ziluth....|ziluth._
Yetzirah . . . ---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....--- ....---....---....---....--- . . .
Atziluth__....|ziluth...|ziluth...|ziluth...|ziluth..|ziluth..|ziluth...|ziluth....|ziluth._|ziluth.|ziluth...|ziluth|ziluth..zilu|ziluth...|ziluth....|ziluth._
Assiah.. . . . ---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....---....--- ....---....---....---....--- . . .



Quote:
Originally Posted by jspade
(...) The Infinite Worlds are all part of Assiah, and are connected through Yetzirah (but the barrier is impermeable on no-mana worlds). Thus, for example, while Oberon withdrew from contact with Assiah in most realities, some parallels may still have a corporeal faerie.
That implies a initial Chain of Being splitting itself "infinitely" at the ontological degree of Yetzirah. Because the Tree of Life is only one and it never expands itself horizontally, that would be incompatible with the Kabbalah.

My purpose in this post is to show Infinite Worlds assumptions don't agree with real world Kabbalistic doctrine nor cosmology, but instead remain entirely inside of the domain of science fiction.

And that is the place of its various inconsistences.

But of course, no one can forbid others from working for their enjoyment a entirely fictional cosmology entirely inconsistent (or lacking of true relation) with any real world beliefs, making the game weirder and funnier if that suits the tastes of the players . . .


BTW, this is extremely fnord.



(1) The Kabbalistic "Tree of Life" corresponds exactly with the chain of Being, the perpendicular Axis mundi or Celestial Ray, and it is a symbolic portion of the hindu sutratma.

(2) The "point" where the golden chain cuts trough is "The Garden", "Eden", "the Paradise", "The Holy Temple" (or Palace), "Holy Land", or the Center of the World. The ontological intersection where the horizontizontal plane is passively touched by the active Celestial Ray or chain is portrayed in Genesis by the four rivers of Eden, being symbolic for the horizontal directions of space (north-south-east-west) along a horizontal plane: "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads". (Genesis 1:10).
_____"East, West, height, depth, North, South, with the holy temple in the middle, sustaining all things." (Sepher Yetzirah IV:2)
Height and depth are here the two "sections" (upper and lower) of the Chain of Being, constituting between all them the six directions of space (4e Fantasy: Above and Below, p. 40).

(3) And from a metaphysical viewpoint, the very Absolute isn't different of the very Chain of the Being or sutratma (literally "the thread of the Absolute"), being it unique (and never multiple), too: "O Arjuna, there is nothing higher than Brahman. Everything in the universe is strung on Brahman like jewels on the thread of a necklace." (Bhagavad-Gitâ, VII, 7)

(4) Being too the origin of the different cosmic regions or "worlds" vertically strung in it. Again: "Everything in the universe is strung on Brahman like jewels on the thread of a necklace." (Bhagavad-Gitâ, VII, 7). In Kabbalah, the fundamental division of Four worlds along the chain of Being, doesn't excludes the reality of a indefinite number of non-specified "worlds" or ontological states of the being different than the material one.

(5) Unfortunately, that seems to be other of the impossible assumptions of GURPS Infinite Worlds:
_____"While roaming across the Infinite Worlds, both Cabalists and harderheaded Patrolmen have encountered all manner of “gods,” (...). Every so often, they meet a god who meets the more traditional definition – a transcendent entity of immense supernatural power." (IW, "Active Gods" box, p. 69)
_____While "gods" in a polytheistic sense is applicable to all sorts of transcendent beings, devas, angels . . . native to worlds higher than the corporeal and astral one (Briah's spiritual domain), and their multiplicity does implies a degree of relativity being able to match with these paragraph along with Kabbalah (translating "gods" as "angels" due its monotheist language), the same isn't possible to guess about "God" or Atziluth, the "god who meets the more traditional definition - a trascendent entity of inmense supernatural power".
_____A inconsistency here is Infinite Worlds not talking about "the god who meets the more traditional definition", but about people finding different entities of this sort, every so often, implying plurality of Absolutes, hence, "relative absolutes!".
_____BTW, no horizontal exploration of such "Infinite Worlds" by harderheaded Patrolmen could draw them near to that "entity" for "meeting it"; that would need an upwards displacement from Assiah to Yetzrirah, from Yetzirah to Briah, and from Briah to Atziluth or "God", leaving the material body behind, at least trough Proyection.
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Old 03-21-2008, 05:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonsbane
Why do you want to mix that? The result can't be coherent.
Neither is "In my father's house there are many mansions". But they manage anyway. Note that same objections you make to the multiple worlds of IW apply equally well to the existence of more than one planet in this universe.
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Old 03-21-2008, 05:44 PM   #18
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Neither is "In my father's house there are many mansions". But they manage anyway. Note that same objections you make to the multiple worlds of IW apply equally well to the existence of more than one planet in this universe.
In these doctrines, such places and mansions were higher ontological states (or worlds, too, but not material ones), upwards in the chain of Being.

Or downwards, if you were aiming to a bad place.
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonsbane
In these doctrines, such places and mansions were higher ontological states (or worlds, too, but not material ones), upwards in the chain of Being.

Or downwards, if you were aiming to a bad place.
Which of course is how you reconcile Cabal cosmology with Infinite Worlds. They may be different "universes" but they are the same ontological state.
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:57 PM   #20
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Default Re: House Rules for Working GURPS Cabal With Infinite Worlds

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2
(...) Note that same objections you make to the multiple worlds of IW apply equally well to the existence of more than one planet in this universe.
That isn't so.

The planets always were included along the vertical chain of Being, but they weren't regarded as "purely material worlds inhabited by human or human-like beings" nor as parallel states, not fitting in any way with the science fiction idea of horizontally arranged purely material Infinite Worlds.

Keep in mind, also, "horizontal" only has meaning with relation to the perpendicular Chain . . . Out of that, its meaning in this context is completely lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2
Which of course is how you reconcile Cabal cosmology with Infinite Worlds. They may be different "universes" but they are the same ontological state.
Hm, I'm not reconciling Cabal nor Kabbalah with "Infinite Worlds" . . . I'm afraid that isn't possible, and indeed, that is what I tried to explain in the earlier posts.

On the other hand, "different universes being the same ontological state", has nothing to do with Kabbalah: I already explained according its cosmology a given ontologic state only can have a single ontological intersection. Any further world or universe trying to share the same ontological state and bent in being parallel to something, would share by necessity the same intersection point in the chain, resulting in being the same world instead a parallel one, despite all efforts ;)
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