Do non-combat modifiers apply to somebody with Incompetence:Guns?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

But incompetencies really exist, and aren't all the result of traumatic experiences.

I didn't say otherwise. I said that overcoming an Incompetence would require a traumatic experience in my campaign. I suppose that learning therapy would work, too, but that's too slow for the action-adventure campaigns I prefer to run.

[Anders]

How about familiarity penalties? Do they apply?

[BraselC5048]

Um, I have the high-Dx character with Incompetence:Guns going down to the range with DX 12 character operating at default for the DX 12 character to start learning to shoot. The high-DX character is going to be shooting mostly for the comic value of "how the heck can you miss like that?" along with "Do I have to? Ok, then, I'll try it."

I don't want the high-DX character to improve, in fact I was hoping she would be more than 1 worse then the DX 12 character working at default, still hardly hitting anything on the range.

Kind of the like time the character with Impulsiveness got the bright idea to bake another character a cake, working at default. I didn't want to pass the roll, it's not like it mattered all that much anyway, in fact that might have been an ask the GM "can I just fall the roll for some humor value?"

[Anders]

Remember that DX 18 is probably more than anyone in the world has today. This is not a realistic person. You can't apply realistic expectations to unrealistic characters.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I didn't say otherwise. I said that overcoming an Incompetence would require a traumatic experience in my campaign. I suppose that learning therapy would work, too, but that's too slow for the action-adventure campaigns I prefer to run.

Okay, but I find it an odd phrasing for trauma to help people.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Okay, but I find it an odd phrasing for trauma to help people.

The usual wording is "Necessity is the mother of invention." The point is, obstacles are most likely to be overcome after one runs into them and realizes that the next collision might not be so forgiving.

[BraselC5048]

Originally Posted by Anders

Remember that DX 18 is probably more than anyone in the world has today. This is not a realistic person. You can't apply realistic expectations to unrealistic characters.

A century ago, probably 25-75 against as the whether anyone alive has it, 1-2 who had it but who aren't old enough to get it yet or had it but lost it due to aging.

Today, maybe 1-2 with it, a couple more who had it at one point. None of them doing much of anything with it. Perhaps a checkout cashier somewhere in the west, and a peasant farmer in India or Africa. There's also likely perhaps a dozen (since it doesn't change as much with aging, and including IQ 17) Newtons or De Vincis alive today. All of them living in obscurity, and likely (for whatever reason) not doing much with it, due to lack of opportunity or education or interest. It's not that these stats don't exist - it's just that they have actually use it and come to worldwide attention. And the odds are even longer that a person with DX 18 has the rest of the stat line and advantages/disadvantages suitable for an adventurer.

Still, she has the benefit being bread for high DX and a good rest of the stat line, as well as being raised for good stats (likely half of what does it it right there) raising the odds to "only" one in several million. Probably will get another one from there in a millennium or two. Even then, despite all her talents and perks, Incompetence:Guns (and likely any other ranged weapon) is a big drawback. Inability to fight in any way other than closing to melee is a pretty big limitation.


* * * * * * * * * * * *

I actually have it so that untrained defaults go to 15. That gives her an incompetence level of 7. DX 12 guy at default is skill 8. I was hoping that the difference in ability to use out-of-combat modifiers in favor of the DX 12 guy would make about a 2 or 3 net difference in DX 12 guy's favor, since he's the one learning, and skill 7 still isn't embarrassing enough on the range.

So, torso target at 10 yards is -5, 1 yard round target at 20 yards is -6, -4 at 10 yards.

So default guy gets +7 from 8, for 15 without aiming, 17 with. So without aiming, 3 hits from the revolver at the torso target, 2 on the round target at 20 yards and 4 on it at 10. Aiming brings it up to 4 hits, 3 hits and 4-5 hits. Not bad, but not great. (Acc 1 due to poor condition of weapon.)

High DX character, getting only +1 for lack of pressure, would hit (without aiming) with one shot on the torso target, miss the 20 yard target completely, and get 2 hits it at 10 yards. Guns 18 friend shows up, runs hard into the 22+2x Acc limit with her +7, shoots an 8" group at the 10 yard without aiming, and concludes the old .38 is a piece of junk. Which it is.

Guns 18+ friend then takes out her Acc 4 target pistol (w/ weapon bond), and provides an illustration of "power level."

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

Today, maybe 1-2 with it, a couple more who had it at one point. None of them doing much of anything with it. Perhaps a checkout cashier somewhere in the west, and a peasant farmer in India or Africa. There's also likely perhaps a dozen (since it doesn't change as much with aging, and including IQ 17) Newtons or De Vincis alive today.

Probably not; Neither GURPS IQ nor DX represent pure 'natural talent', and no one is going to have an 18 in either one without considerable training towards that end.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The usual wording is "Necessity is the mother of invention." The point is, obstacles are most likely to be overcome after one runs into them and realizes that the next collision might not be so forgiving.

Still, I think it's a disagreement of exact word connotation that may be a regional thing.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Probably not; Neither GURPS IQ nor DX represent pure 'natural talent', and no one is going to have an 18 in either one without considerable training towards that end.

No one is going to have their maximum strength at age 15 as Gurps implies either.
Strength can continue to increase until one's mid 30s or so.