Magical Styles

[OneSeventeen]

From the context, I guess that "consonant" means colleges that mesh well with this order. Sort of like... constructive interference (is that a term?). It made me expect "prohibited" to be "dissonant", though.


117

[transmetahuman]

Big edit: Had a whole bunch of stuff that, in retrospect, wasn't appropriate for this thread. I'll start a new one when I have enough material, and apologies to anyone I caused to read through four paragraphs of irrelevance.

I like Xenophile's stuff a lot, but I'm working more on what are basically different power sources (in Powers terms) than lenses for GURPS Magic.

[JAW]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Xenophile, I was really hoping that you would comment on whether a PC can only train up a spell in your setting if they know a style under which the spell is listed. This is an issue I had to face when developing my own magical styles.

Such a limitation would most closely follow the system used for martial arts techniques, where if you want to train a technique, you need to study a style that teaches it. On the other hand, it complicates magical training, since a mage generally wants to know a lot of spells.

As I mentioned, I ended up making some spells manadatory for each style (treating them as skills rather than techniques in the Martial Arts system), while allowing that the mage could still study any other spell they want.

Well if the PCs coul dlearn any spell what would be the point of bying the styles? Expect maybe that the styles would allow buying the spells as techniqes and otherveise you would need to learn them as separate skills but that owuld get a bit wonky.

I would assume that if these styles are in use you need at least an UB or somethign to learn spells outside the style(s) you'we practised. If one wants a bit more meaty backgorund than just "fantasy mage" one has to have some kind of explanation where the spells come from.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by JAW

Well if the PCs coul dlearn any spell what would be the point of bying the styles? Expect maybe that the styles would allow buying the spells as techniqes and otherveise you would need to learn them as separate skills but that owuld get a bit wonky.

In my setting "The Gift" that I linked to earlier,
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/The_Gift:Main_Page
the spells listed for the styles are spells that must be mastered to complete apprenticeship, though any other spell may be learned. The point of taking one of the 31 listed magical styles is that being trained in a style is the only way to get magical training. (Well, with GM approval, a PC might be allowed to take an unlisted style, but the point is that you have to have been trained in a style to be a mage).

In choosing a style, the player has to decide which style best helps the PC to gain the powers they desire and which style best situates the PC socially.

[Kromm]

Remember that Martial Arts style costs all include a point for an implicit Style Familiarity perk. It would be necessary (and interesting!) to define this for magical styles. By analogy to fighting styles, the definition might look something like this:

Style Familiarity

1 point/style

Style Familiarity means you've studied and/or practiced a magical style in sufficient detail to understand the thaumatological principles that undergird its spells. You must pay a point for familiarity with any style you know. Effects are as follows:

• You can always use spells such as Counterspell and Ward against any of the style's spells, at full skill, even if you don't know the spell you're trying to cancel or deflect.

• You can acquire the style's spells simply by spending earned points in play, avoiding lengthy training and/or expensive guild fees. You can still learn spells the hard way if you lack unspent points, at the usual rate of 200 hours of instruction per point.

• You're familiar with the style's culture, and neither you nor anyone teaching you suffers the -3 for lack of Cultural Familiarity when using the Teaching skill to convey the style's knowledge.

• In most settings, you have the equivalent of a 1-point Claim to Hospitality (p. B41) with a guild or an archmage.

[JAW]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

In my setting "The Gift" that I linked to earlier,
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/The_Gift:Main_Page
the spells listed for the styles are spells that must be mastered to complete apprenticeship, though any other spell may be learned. The point of taking one of the 31 listed magical styles is that being trained in a style is the only way to get magical training. (Well, with GM approval, a PC might be allowed to take an unlisted style, but the point is that you have to have been trained in a style to be a mage).

In choosing a style, the player has to decide which style best helps the PC to gain the powers they desire and which style best situates the PC socially.

Well then the spells listed in styles would essentially be prerequisites for all the other spells.. -But you could choose any style. But these styles here (in thsi thread) have different costs that do not include all the spells in the style...

One could allow some kind of "adept" status - say an UB that costs 20-(the_base cost_of_the_style) - that requires sufficient knowledge in a style (at least a point in all the skills & spells listed??) and allows learning any other spells. As any "adept" could learn any spells it would make sense for the style cost + adept cost to be equal regardles of the style - naturally starting PCs would not usually start as adepts..

Normally "mage" in GURPS refers to somebody with magery - wich is more or less innate ability. But of course spells can be studied even if you dont have magery - you just cant use them in normal mana - but still it would be bit strange hawing to study a list of spells to become a "mage" .. It makes sense tough that some traditions would requirte a mage to learn a list of skills & spells before letting them to their library to study whatever they want there.

But to me it seems the Xenophiles styles here are essentially UBs that allow learning the skills & spells listed under them - and learning magic outside them would require a separate UB.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by JAW

Well then the spells listed in styles would essentially be prerequisites for all the other spells..

Right. They are required to learn other spells, as the skills listed for a martial arts style are required to learn techniques. Having satisfied the basics, you can go on to more advanced training.

But these styles here (in thsi thread) have different costs that do not include all the spells in the style...

I thought your comment was about magical styles in general, as opposed to Xenophile's in particular. I'm still not sure what Xenophile intends.

One could allow some kind of "adept" status - say an UB that costs 20-(the_base cost_of_the_style) - that requires sufficient knowledge in a style (at least a point in all the skills & spells listed??) and allows learning any other spells.

I'm not sure we need a new advantage. Martial Arts styles already have required skills, so magical styles can have required skills and required spells. The real difference is a rule about magic in the setting and who has access to it. Since "The Gift" is a game about mages and you can only play one by taking a style, an UB isn't required.

Certainly, a single advantage wouldn't work, since the different groups of mages have different requirements for graduation with different point costs, ranging from 21 points to be a mage of House Crane Flying, the Paulites, Sacred Chalice or the Silver Mirror School to 33 points to be a mage of House Burning Stone.

Arguably, the word "style" is inappropriate, since unlike Martial Arts styles, there is no style familiarity and no techniques. I take it though that nothing massive hangs on that. There are various schools of magic to choose from, just as there are various schools of combat for the martial artist to choose from.

Normally "mage" in GURPS refers to somebody with magery - wich is more or less innate ability. But of course spells can be studied even if you dont have magery - you just cant use them in normal mana - but still it would be bit strange hawing to study a list of spells to become a "mage"

I should have been clearer in my terminology. My bad.

A "mage" in the GURPS rules does just mean someone with magery. I was making a distinction between an apprentice mage and a mage, where the apprentice is still in training and the mage is considered to have qualified.

.. It makes sense tough that some traditions would requirte a mage to learn a list of skills & spells before letting them to their library to study whatever they want there.

That is what happens in my setting. Once the apprentice has gone through the rigerous training in skills and spells that is required for graduation as a mage, they are allowed to study what they want. Each of the 31 groups has very different requirements, depending on what they think a mage should be.

But to me it seems the Xenophiles styles here are essentially UBs that allow learning the skills & spells listed under them - and learning magic outside them would require a separate UB.

You may be right. Xenophile?

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember that Martial Arts style costs all include a point for an implicit Style Familiarity perk. It would be necessary (and interesting!) to define this for magical styles. By analogy to fighting styles, the definition might look something like this:

Style Familiarity

1 point/style

Style Familiarity means you've studied and/or practiced a magical style in sufficient detail to understand the thaumatological principles that undergird its spells. You must pay a point for familiarity with any style you know. Effects are as follows:

• You can always use spells such as Counterspell and Ward against any of the style's spells, at full skill, even if you don't know the spell you're trying to cancel or deflect.

• You can acquire the style's spells simply by spending earned points in play, avoiding lengthy training and/or expensive guild fees. You can still learn spells the hard way if you lack unspent points, at the usual rate of 200 hours of instruction per point.

• You're familiar with the style's culture, and neither you nor anyone teaching you suffers the -3 for lack of Cultural Familiarity when using the Teaching skill to convey the style's knowledge.

• In most settings, you have the equivalent of a 1-point Claim to Hospitality (p. B41) with a guild or an archmage.

That's great! I hope that you publish it or otherwise put it up somewhere online as an optional rule. I suppose it is just a tad too late to get it included in GURPS Thaumatology

[JAW]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

I'm not sure we need a new advantage. Martial Arts styles already have required skills, so magical styles can have required skills and required spells. The real difference is a rule about magic in the setting and who has access to it. Since "The Gift" is a game about mages and you can only play one by taking a style, an UB isn't required.

Well with UBs it's of course wery much game world specific. In setting like banestorm where magic is widely known knowing spells has not much surprice value so magery is enough. In a world that spells are unkwont to public acces to any magic but whre the world is mostly lov mana - acces to spells should cost something minor. But if you have a normal mana world where magic is totally unknown to the public somebody with acces to spells is at definite advantage and spells would be regarded as valuable secret information by those who have acces to them - 20 pts UB would not be too much in that case IMO.

Of course if all the PCs are mages it doesn't really matter - but if you had non-mage PCs too or even wanted to balance non-mage allies and mage allies 20pt - on top of the magery - for acces to any spell might not be too much.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by JAW

Of course if all the PCs are mages it doesn't really matter - but if you had non-mage PCs too or even wanted to balance non-mage allies and mage allies 20pt - on top of the magery - for acces to any spell might not be too much.

Yes, I take your point. However, this issue isn't specific to games that require magical styles or have a different prerequisite system, right? It holds for any game where magic is rare, it seems.