Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-06-2018, 06:14 PM   #1
Jim Kane
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

The fact that the TFT rule-books ended-up sometimes operationally reading like a giant, three-volume MicroQuest, is something I would like to see NEW and FUTURE GAMERS as POTENTIAL BUYERS OF THE PRODUCT spared from - more than anything else.

After all, everyone of us can tweak the rules, regardless of what the final print informs.

TFT as a commercial product upon being re-introduced into today's hobby-market will have the unique opportunity to potentially 'catch-fire' once again, but with a whole new, and much larger audience of Gamers - young Gamers (younger than 50, that is) who probably have no idea TFT even exists; nor may they even care.

The new TFT product presentation and how easy it is to embrace by those-not-already-sold will determine if we - as loyal fans and long-time players - end-up with a privately-printed deluxe re-issue for only ourselves, and the project ends with that, OR, if lightning in a bottle will be caught once again; and the bigger market DEMANDS more supplements, more solos, more modules, and more expansion-sets.

I've been waiting for this since SJ and HT parted ways, and the TFT product went from the #2 FRPG on the market - just behind The Big D - and quickly died a pathetic and whimpering death in the commercial market-place.

Think about the gravity of that statement for a moment: "#2 in the 1980s market-place, at the height of the so-called: "D&D Craze",... only to painfully and spasmodically fade-away with little noise or notice - except by the already-sold fans like you and me.

Frankly, it's time to see some TFT revenge dished-out in terms of recapturing that past sales glory with heavy market penetration - at DOUBLE DAMAGE!

-
Jim Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 07:01 PM   #2
Jackal
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New England
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

@Jim Kane: not sure where you're going with this.

Are you concerned about writing style?

Absence of plans to release companion scenarios or adventures?

Longevity as a function of market share?

Something else?

I do think SJ needs to decide -- as he has mentioned in other posts -- whether the focus here is as a drop-in encounter resolution system, or RPG, or both or neither.

I have faith that he will arrive at a cool place, as I'm sure we all do. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

I commented elsewhere once that SJ has a gift for isolating an interesting mechanic, combining it with a genre, and creating a gem of a game.

TFT is exhibit A.

What am I missing?

Cheers.
Jackal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 07:49 PM   #3
Jim Kane
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal View Post
@Jim Kane: not sure where you're going with this.

Are you concerned about writing style?

Absence of plans to release companion scenarios or adventures?

Longevity as a function of market share?

Something else?

I do think SJ needs to decide -- as he has mentioned in other posts -- whether the focus here is as a drop-in encounter resolution system, or RPG, or both or neither.

I have faith that he will arrive at a cool place, as I'm sure we all do. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

I commented elsewhere once that SJ has a gift for isolating an interesting mechanic, combining it with a genre, and creating a gem of a game.

TFT is exhibit A.

What am I missing?

Cheers.
You're not "missing" anything, it is simply that your "aim" is askew from my point.

The "target" who will bring the system back is not "we", being the long-established fan-base; but rather, it is the "them" - being the unaware, unsold, uninitiated huge, Huge, HUGE potential customer-base out there.

I am talking about the importance of acceptance by that kid (under 30 for me LOL!) in the game store who if you asked him right now, would answer you:

"TF,...WTH?"

Those are the people who will keep TFT going after a kick-start re-launch; but ONLY if THEY embrace it, and demand more.

"We" are going to get our TFT back as a re-issue - I have little doubt of that - but that is so short-sighted a goal. I see a larger vision; and always have.

I still believe deeply in this product - as much as I ever have - so-much-so, I want to see it shared it with THE WHOLE GAMING WORLD.

And that should have happened back in 1981, and was poised to happen, and was happening, and then,... didn't happen - and for a number of reasons; and none of which had anything to do with how GREAT a system it is.

So, what could possibly be a sweeter revenge than to see a re-released TFT 'catch-fire' again, and SUSTAIN itself and GROW with a new, HUGE fan-base of young gamers clambering for more, More, MORE!

Sorry if you found my first post abstruse. I hope this follow-up makes my point clear to you about the primary importance of a well-organized (and highly-indexed) rules-set; as "rule-book whiplash" was NOT a TFT selling-point for attracting the masses of Gamers already sold on that other system.

It would really bite to watch a beloved friend die - twice.

Thanks for asking.

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-06-2018 at 11:49 PM.
Jim Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 08:44 PM   #4
Jackal
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New England
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

@ Jim Kane: Ah yes! I see now. Thanks for clarifying.

Agree 100%.

Know what might be neat -- and would get those kid's attention, maybe?

Cards.

Not like Munchkin cards. Not a card game. But cards with monster stats on them. And maybe Action cards players could pick with what they can do during a turn.

We wrote some up for our games. They were helpful but not always used: they weren't very pretty, to be honest. And the layout -- well, we can't all be graphic designers!

Ooo - and maybe some stand up cardboard heros-type figures?

I know - none of this is substantive. Pretty toys do not a great game make. Gotta have cool mechanics and heart under it, and be fun to play, which TFT has in spades already.

But perhaps it's worth brainstorming to make sure none of your (all our) worst nightmare comes to pass? Is there room for an app somehow? Or whatever kids use these days?

- Jack

Last edited by Jackal; 03-06-2018 at 08:45 PM. Reason: correction
Jackal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2018, 11:20 PM   #5
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

Jim has it basically correct. There is an underground of aging grognards that always held in their hearts that against all hope Hell might freeze over. And it seems to be getting cooler and cooler...

Besides a somewhat corrected and perhaps re-organized set of rules, with *great* realistic art (maybe artists who have actually taken a few life drawing classes and understand the physics of movement and balance), I'm sure we all look forward to both more support material, and in my case *Programmed Modules*, that have the cleverness and intrigue and challenge of the original Microquests (especially DT1, DT2, Security Station, Grail Quest, and Orb Quest). There is also room for Tollenkar's Lair style source books for those that want to really work as GMs to create an interesting adventure.

And hope beyond hope inspiring new gamers, lost amongst all of the thumb-spraining electronic toys of the day, to use their imaginations and to sit around a table, feel dice in their hands and watch the expressions on other's faces as they explore and encounter and struggle with all of the other imaginations present.

Player aid cards, an index or codex, well-placed art to make remembering a place in the rules easier, the *Game Master's Shield*!, and even cardboard standups (shudder) or minis (SHUDDER) as optional items are welcome. I could even see a writeup explaining the Bell Curve, which is one mathematical foundation that this game uses brilliantly, and it what makes this game feel real, because it models the physical world.

Great games are based on creating interesting and challenging decisions for the players to resolve, and TFT can do that if it is presented well and is well-supported.

Even the genius of a Wish in TFT, which is difficult to obtain, then even more challenging to use because of the clever choice presented; use it just-in-time after the fact for a Do-Over (and risk something worse or no better) or use it prophylactically and get to decide exactly what the roll should be (but maybe you didn't need to use it in the first place, you'll never know). ;)
Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2018, 12:11 AM   #6
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

TFT is already a great game, and I'm sure Steve Jackson Games will give it a slick new presentation. But, everyone should be very aware that the gaming market is totally different now than it was 40 years ago. Brick and mortar stores are not nearly as prevalent now as they were then, and most people do their shopping on-line (and increasingly, their playing too), which means that market exposure is the key to making this game a success.

Unfortunately, that also means that the "cycle" for new games is a lot shorter too -- you either hit big in the first 3 months, or you've already missed the boat. To some extent, I suspect that's what might have happened with Dungeon Fantasy -- for some reason, it didn't "click" right away and has now been pretty much overcome by events; resulting in a decision by SJGs to not reprint it. When we were younglings, the game cycle held for much longer, and new products were few and far between (comparatively) meaning that games had a chance to be "out there" for quite a bit longer than they do now. How many of us remember waiting for two years to buy TFT (after Wizard and Death Test came out) and were just as eager for it at the end of that time as we were at the beginning? Nowadays, if it doesn't kick off with a big splash and make an instant hit, it's going to die pretty quickly; and not get much support from SJGs who are, after all, in the business to make some money, not support memorial projects...

So what's the answer? Well...we are, kind of. We need to be generating as much buzz as we possibly can in our gaming groups and wider connections. We need to interest a new generation of players in seeing what this "fantasy trip stuff" is all about. That means taking your precious copies out into the public and running games at your local hobby shops or as "something different" in your gaming groups. It means SJG running a slick advertising approach to this thing, not only in the hobby shops but also by doing what they can to make sure it shows up in internet searches; it means interviews and articles and podcasts and retrospectives and social media posts; it means buying ad time on other people's web pages, not just the SJG web page, and it means that those of us running blogs or web sites need to start putting links to SJGs and other Fantasy Trip sites out there and pushing them towards the public.

The success or failure of TFT is almost entirely based on ACCESS at this point; the rules are already good enough to be successful (indeed, as was pointed out earlier, were the second biggest selling fantasy roleplaying system out there back in 1981-3, only outsold by D&D -- and probably only then because D&D was EVERYWHERE, and TFT wasn't), and I suspect when Steve gets done with them, the rules will be that much better; and I can virtually guarantee that SJG will also produce a high-quality product both visually and physically...but no game will ever sell if no one knows anything about it.

So, my bottom line is that if people want it to succeed like it did back in the old days -- get the word out. Write those articles, put up those ads on your web pages, post things on Facebook and Twitter and whatever else it is people use these days, take the original books out of their plastic sleeves and set them up in your local hobby shop. Start writing new adventures and splat books and everything else you can think of, because, given that short game success cycle mentioned above, one way to extend it is to keep new products hitting the streets as quickly as we can.

Last edited by JLV; 03-07-2018 at 12:15 AM.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2018, 12:54 AM   #7
Jim Kane
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
...How many of us remember waiting for two years to buy TFT (after Wizard and Death Test came out) and were just as eager for it at the end of that time as we were at the beginning?...
And in the between time, TSG would arrive in your mailbox like some sort of sweet-smelling Houri Fan-dancer, sent to your home to hypnotically sway before you,.. to excite and titillate you,... with rumors of: "the new counter-sheets for Death Test from Pat Hidy are finally back from the printers and they look fantastic."

And other times, like a vanishing puff of smoke, pull-away teasingly and on-cue with: "Work is progressing, but slowly."

LOL!
.
Jim Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2018, 02:33 AM   #8
Jim Kane
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
...aging grognards...
"Ain't it the truth!" - B. Bunny

.
Jim Kane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2018, 03:58 AM   #9
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

For the reborn TFT to succeed and attract a wider and ongoing audience what it will need is excellent support materials available at the start (or very early on at worst). Like someone said above, the game market has changed and there is now a very short window to get gamers attention. If you miss that, you're done.

The fact that Melee/Wizard/Death Test/TFT were very good will not be enough in my opinion. If Steve just want to update and reissue Melee/Wizard/Deathtest pretty much as they were, that's fine but will probably not gather a huge new audience.

What might gather a huge new audience is a completely new and integrated TFT RPG, with tidied up rules (basic and advanced), great new art, map/hex tiles, counters/minis, monster book, adventure book, world book, GM screen etc, all available right at the start. And then an aggressive schedule of new module releases over the next months.

If you look at the huge success of the AD&D adventure games Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon etc, they come in a big box with great quality rules, tiles, cards, minis, tokens etc, everything needed to play out of the box. But the games themselves are quite limited and every time I play them I'm aching for a meatier experience like TFT. If we could have TFT done like that we might have a winner; "TFT the boxed Adventure Game: Death Test!"

It would of course be a big risk but the rewards could also be huge.
Chris Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2018, 05:38 AM   #10
Andrew Hackard
Munchkin Line Editor
 
Andrew Hackard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Unfortunately, that also means that the "cycle" for new games is a lot shorter too -- you either hit big in the first 3 months, or you've already missed the boat.
That's a couple of years out of date. It's more like two months now, and heading in the direction of six weeks.

Edited to add: This is another reason why in-store preorders are critical to a game's success. If the buzz is out there before the game hits shelves, we get a head start on that ever-shrinking window.
__________________
Andrew Hackard, Munchkin Line Editor
If you have a question that isn't getting answered, we have a thread for that.

Let people like what they like. Don't be a gamer hater.

#PlayMunchkin on social media: Twitter || Facebook || Instagram || YouTube
Follow us on Kickstarter: Steve Jackson Games and Warehouse 23

Last edited by Andrew Hackard; 03-07-2018 at 06:07 AM.
Andrew Hackard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.