Pricing Skills Based On Utility

ErhnamDJ · 03-01-2013, 12:35 AM

I've been toying with these house rules for a while now (a few years, at least). I've hit a brick wall with them and haven't made any progress now in about six months, so where they sit now is likely where they're going to stay absent any critiques pointing out my glaring flaws.

Skills are no longer related to attributes. Attributes are their own thing. Skills are purchased individually, like advantages. Each skill is priced based on a Tier. There are five tiers, which each acting as a multiplier on the skill price.

Tier - Multiplier
A - x1
B - x.5
C - x.3
D - x.2
E - x.1

And here is the cost chart I've come up with. I do have prices for skills lower than ten and higher than twenty, but I'm not as sure on their pricing.

Skill 10 - 5
Skill 11 - 10
Skill 12 - 15
Skill 13 - 20
Skill 14 - 25
Skill 15 - 30
Skill 16 - 34
Skill 17 - 38
Skill 18 - 42
Skill 19 - 46
Skill 20 - 50

Here's what that looks like as a table for each skill level:

Code:

Skill Level		           Tier
		A	B	C	D	E
10		5	2.5	1.5	1	.5
11		10	5	3	2	1
12		15	7.5	4.5	3	1.5
13		20	10	6	4	2
14		25	12.5	7.5	5	2.5	
15		30	15	9	6	3
16		34	17	10.2	6.8	3.4
17		38	19	11.4	7.6	3.8	
18		42	21	12.6	8.4	4.2
19		46	23	13.8	9.2	4.6
20		50	25	15	10	5

Let's say that Guns is a tier A skill. That allows me to keep the same formatting and would be written like: Guns (A) [50]-20.

Hobby Skill (Cup Stacking) would almost certainly be a tier E skill, so if you wanted that at skill twenty, you would write: Hobby Skill (Cup Stacking) (E) [5]-20.

I see two benefits to this system:

1) It allows skills to be priced based on their utility, like we do with everything else in the game. Under this system, Guns can cost more than Hobby Skill (Cup Stacking), which makes more sense to me than them each having the same price. This would allow for people to take those Hobby Skills, since their price would be so low.

2) It allows skills to be priced based on their utility for different games. In a hack-and-slash Dungeon Fantasy game, where magic is always available, a skill like Surgery is not nearly as useful as it is in an uber-realistic Vietnam war game. With this pricing system, the GM can easily adjust the price of that skill to suit his game. In Dungeon Fantasy, it might be a Tier E skill, whereas in the Vietnam game it might be Tier B.

I don't have any of these prices figured out for certain yet. I don't know, necessarily, how the tiers should interrelate, or what each individual skill level should cost. I put a lot of thought into these numbers that I have now, but I could be very easily persuaded that they're wrong if anyone has a good argument for it.

Here is a sample skill list for use in Dungeon Fantasy that I came up with as a proof of concept. This is all in the early stages, so it's not about where each skill is as much as showing how this might work:

Spoiler:

I've left off the cinematic skills and spells, since those are outside the bounds of what I'm willing to work with at such an early stage here.

One thing that I will note with those DF skills is that, if I make the Dungeon Fantasy templates with them, the new numbers do match up pretty well with the power levels I've observed in play. The Swashbuckler and Knight are both worth considerably more than the Barbarian.

Another thing I'm doing is charging for multiple melee combat skills as alternative abilities once you have your first one. So you pay fifty points to get, say, Staff at skill twenty, but then it's only ten points to get Knife at the same skill level. I think this makes the most sense, considerably that the utility of additional combat skills drops drastically after the first one. I'm not sure how to handle the unarmed skills, since those are applicable in different situations. I would always charge full price for Shield as well, since that's used for defense rather than offense.

I would love to read any thoughts that people might have here. One thing I would like to do is come up with a generic pricing for the individual skills that's good enough for use in most games. We have that with advantages already and there are benefits to that approach. My main concern is pricing the skills individually. Being able to change them for different games is a secondary concern, though I would love to come up with different skill tiers for different games. I'd like to have a different one sitting there ready for a Cthulhuesque horror game, or a gritty war game, or whatever other type of game.

Sample DF characters made using these rules (not that these use PK's rules to separate Will and Per, which increase the templates to 280 points):

Barbarian
Knight
Swashbuckler
Thief
Scout
Scholar
Ninja
Mentalist

johndallman · 03-01-2013, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I would love to read any thoughts that people might have here. One thing I would like to do is come up with a generic pricing for the individual skills that's good enough for use in most games.

I am not convinced that the current RAW pricing for stat-based skills is wrong "for most games", assuming that you mean "most genres and styles." I suspect that you may be trying, without realising it, to work around the distortions that DF - which is a game about power fantasies - introduces into the utility of skills designed for less fantastic genres.

I also really don't fancy trying to set up skill pricing for campaigns, because (a) there are quite a lot of skills (b) it demands that I both have a very clear idea of what the game is about before I start and that it doesn't change in the course of a campaign and (c) there's real scope for the utility of skills to change in non-obvious ways across TLs.

ericthered · 03-01-2013, 02:20 AM

Fast draw is an E skill for DF? I suppose the assumption is weapons are always drawn, but even so...

Maz · 03-01-2013, 02:34 AM

I like the idea but focusing on DF-type games, it makes it even mroe expensive to be a DX-based character (ie. one that uses speed, dodge and acrobatics instead of heavy armour. In the normal rules you can simply pump your DX and it makes you good at all those thing s AND combat skills. By your system, having such a character would be very expensive as they have to buy Acrobatics and Weapon skills from the ground up. It might help that Acrobatics is set so low, but then, that might also be a problem as acrobatics is a really powerful skill.

You would have to reprice IQ and DX, as neither have much use now.

I think it can work, you 'll have to try it out in practise though. :)

Walrus · 03-01-2013, 03:21 AM

Quote:

It allows skills to be priced based on their utility, like we do with everything else in the game.
<...>
It allows skills to be priced based on their utility for different games.

I don't remember if following argument was stated in your previous threads on skills but even if it was, repeating wouldn't hurt.

All traits (including skills and disadvantages) in GURPS aren't priced based on their "overall utility". They're priced on their potential utility if the PC will exploit all of his traits as much as possible and that PC just won't take traits he won't exploit. This is default assumption. And it is assumed GM's duty to inform players (not characters) if some skills might be of no or less use in the campaign. And again it's his duty to provide challenges for those skills which he didn't mention to be such. And the GM should be generous and opened to players suggestion about using one or another skill in non-standard way. There are numerous posts by Kromm where he, e.g., suggests a lot of skill for just search task depending on the item (or feature) to be found and the place where to search. And there are "Making Everybody Useful" blocks in each genre supplement (I mean DF, Action, MH).

For example, Vacuum Support and Zeroed advantages might be of no use in ordinary Low Tech campaign. But we can say the same about Electronics Operation or other High-TL skill which don't even exist at such TL. And vice versa, some Social Engineering campaign might see little or no combat at all so Guns can become much less valuable than social skills. But this doesn't mean that skills shouldn't cost their cost. That just means that some builds are inconsistent in some campaigns. If your favorite "Mary Sue" character has Guns 20 and Hobby Skill (Cap Stacking) 20 it doesn't mean that Hobby Skill should cost less, it just means it's unplausible fictional character.

Background skills are background because they have less value, less points in them. If you want them to be of higher level, then they might become character focus, not background. If one has Accounting 20, he won't go adventuring, he'll become top manager and live happily.

Walrus · 03-01-2013, 03:46 AM

Though, somewhat contrary to my previous post, there are some skills which are priced on their real-life availability, "complexity". So, yes, Guns are easier than Bow and Bow is easier than Sling or Blowpipe but it's so in real life.

Archers were elite troops because bow requires a lot skill to use. Crossbows were "devil's weapon" because they are easy to point and shoot. Colonel Colt equalized people in rights and rifle infantry were just volunteers with a month course or even without one. So, you may see some inner "UB" in Bow skill because it isn't so widespread and hitting a foe from afar is great advantage. And even while usual dungeon somewhat negate that advantage this doesn't mean that Scout should have a discount, it just means that he must involve more tactics than just shoot them one by one.

Gollum · 03-01-2013, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I don't have any of these prices figured out for certain yet. I don't know, necessarily, how the tiers should interrelate, or what each individual skill level should cost. I put a lot of thought into these numbers that I have now, but I could be very easily persuaded that they're wrong if anyone has a good argument for it.

We discussed a lot about your general ideas in your previous thread. So don't worry, I won't do it again...

Just a hint, though. Did you read Tri-Stat DX? If you didn't, it gives several lists of skill costs depending on the setting. It may be a big help for that. And, if I'm not wrong, Tri-Stat DX can be downloaded freely on the web.

SCAR · 03-01-2013, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gollum

We discussed a lot about your general ideas in your previous thread. So don't worry, I won't do it again...

Just a hint, though. Did you read Tri-Stat DX? If you didn't, it gives several lists of skill costs depending on the setting. It may be a big help for that. And, if I'm not wrong, Tri-Stat DX can be downloaded freely on the web.

It's available on DTRPG, and yes it's Free.

~~Figleaf23~~ · 03-01-2013, 07:35 AM

In most games I run, I ask players to build characters who 'come from somewhere', ie. they're not optimized stat-blocks, they're characters in a literary sense. Generally, this involves putting some points into traits relevant to that existence irrespective of it's foreseeable utility in the campaign. For a 150 point character this could be as little as 3-5 points or so.

Characterization is important for our style of play and we like to see an obscure skill suddenly making a difference in a game session. We do this on purpose, even with the current pricing for skills, so I don't think we'd have a need for this system.

whswhs · 03-01-2013, 07:57 AM

I agree with Gollum in recommending Tri-Stat, though the version I've used is the one in Big Eyes Small Mouth 2/e. It's very handy for fitting skill costs to a genre and milieu. What they do is define typical costs for ALL skills in a number of genres that are common in anime, from space opera to high school drama. Then you pick the closest fit.

Bill Stoddard

03-01-2013, 12:35 AM	#1
ErhnamDJ Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: OK	Pricing Skills Based On Utility I've been toying with these house rules for a while now (a few years, at least). I've hit a brick wall with them and haven't made any progress now in about six months, so where they sit now is likely where they're going to stay absent any critiques pointing out my glaring flaws. Skills are no longer related to attributes. Attributes are their own thing. Skills are purchased individually, like advantages. Each skill is priced based on a Tier. There are five tiers, which each acting as a multiplier on the skill price. Tier - Multiplier A - x1 B - x.5 C - x.3 D - x.2 E - x.1 And here is the cost chart I've come up with. I do have prices for skills lower than ten and higher than twenty, but I'm not as sure on their pricing. Skill 10 - 5 Skill 11 - 10 Skill 12 - 15 Skill 13 - 20 Skill 14 - 25 Skill 15 - 30 Skill 16 - 34 Skill 17 - 38 Skill 18 - 42 Skill 19 - 46 Skill 20 - 50 Here's what that looks like as a table for each skill level: Code: Skill Level Tier A B C D E 10 5 2.5 1.5 1 .5 11 10 5 3 2 1 12 15 7.5 4.5 3 1.5 13 20 10 6 4 2 14 25 12.5 7.5 5 2.5 15 30 15 9 6 3 16 34 17 10.2 6.8 3.4 17 38 19 11.4 7.6 3.8 18 42 21 12.6 8.4 4.2 19 46 23 13.8 9.2 4.6 20 50 25 15 10 5 Let's say that Guns is a tier A skill. That allows me to keep the same formatting and would be written like: Guns (A) [50]-20. Hobby Skill (Cup Stacking) would almost certainly be a tier E skill, so if you wanted that at skill twenty, you would write: Hobby Skill (Cup Stacking) (E) [5]-20. I see two benefits to this system: 1) It allows skills to be priced based on their utility, like we do with everything else in the game. Under this system, Guns can cost more than Hobby Skill (Cup Stacking), which makes more sense to me than them each having the same price. This would allow for people to take those Hobby Skills, since their price would be so low. 2) It allows skills to be priced based on their utility for different games. In a hack-and-slash Dungeon Fantasy game, where magic is always available, a skill like Surgery is not nearly as useful as it is in an uber-realistic Vietnam war game. With this pricing system, the GM can easily adjust the price of that skill to suit his game. In Dungeon Fantasy, it might be a Tier E skill, whereas in the Vietnam game it might be Tier B. I don't have any of these prices figured out for certain yet. I don't know, necessarily, how the tiers should interrelate, or what each individual skill level should cost. I put a lot of thought into these numbers that I have now, but I could be very easily persuaded that they're wrong if anyone has a good argument for it. Here is a sample skill list for use in Dungeon Fantasy that I came up with as a proof of concept. This is all in the early stages, so it's not about where each skill is as much as showing how this might work: Spoiler: A Melee Weapon Skills Ranged Weapon Skills B Unarmed Combat Skills Diplomacy Fast-Talk Innate Attack Intimidation Stealth Traps C Acting Armoury Body Language Camouflage Carousing Climbing Detect Lies Hidden Lore Leadership Lockpicking Merchant Naturalist Navigation Observation Poisons Sex Appeal Streetwise Survival Tactics D Animal Handling Alchemy Acrobatics Boating Cartography Diagnosis Disguise Engineer Escape Filch First-Aid Hazardous Materials Hiking Holdout Interrogation Occultism Pharmacy (Herbal) Public Speaking Religious Ritual Riding Scrounging Search Shadowing Thaumatology Theology Throwing Tracking Urban Survival E Architecture Area Knowledge Body Sense Connoisseur Current Affairs Dancing Erotic Art Falconry Fast-Draw Fishing Forced Entry Forgery Gambling Games Gesture Heraldry Hobby Skill Jeweler Jumping Knot-Tying Leatherworking Lifting Lip Reading Meditation Mimicry Musical Composition Musical Instrument Packing Panhandling Performance Philosophy Physiology Pickpocket Poetry Professional Skill Propaganda Prospecting Psychology Research Running Savoir-Faire Seamanship Singing Skiing Sleight of Hand Smith Smuggling Speed-Reading Strategy Surgery Swimming Teaching Teamster Ventriloquism Veterinary Weather Sense Writing I've left off the cinematic skills and spells, since those are outside the bounds of what I'm willing to work with at such an early stage here. One thing that I will note with those DF skills is that, if I make the Dungeon Fantasy templates with them, the new numbers do match up pretty well with the power levels I've observed in play. The Swashbuckler and Knight are both worth considerably more than the Barbarian. Another thing I'm doing is charging for multiple melee combat skills as alternative abilities once you have your first one. So you pay fifty points to get, say, Staff at skill twenty, but then it's only ten points to get Knife at the same skill level. I think this makes the most sense, considerably that the utility of additional combat skills drops drastically after the first one. I'm not sure how to handle the unarmed skills, since those are applicable in different situations. I would always charge full price for Shield as well, since that's used for defense rather than offense. I would love to read any thoughts that people might have here. One thing I would like to do is come up with a generic pricing for the individual skills that's good enough for use in most games. We have that with advantages already and there are benefits to that approach. My main concern is pricing the skills individually. Being able to change them for different games is a secondary concern, though I would love to come up with different skill tiers for different games. I'd like to have a different one sitting there ready for a Cthulhuesque horror game, or a gritty war game, or whatever other type of game. Sample DF characters made using these rules (not that these use PK's rules to separate Will and Per, which increase the templates to 280 points): Barbarian Knight Swashbuckler Thief Scout Scholar Ninja Mentalist __________________ "For the rays, to speak properly, are not colored. In them there is nothing else than a certain power and disposition to stir up a sensation of this or that color." —Isaac Newton, Optics My blog. Last edited by ErhnamDJ; 11-02-2013 at 06:05 PM. Reason: Fixing typo.

03-01-2013, 02:20 AM	#3
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: Pricing Skills Based On Utility Fast draw is an E skill for DF? I suppose the assumption is weapons are always drawn, but even so... __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

03-01-2013, 02:34 AM	#4
Maz Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Denmark	Re: Pricing Skills Based On Utility I like the idea but focusing on DF-type games, it makes it even mroe expensive to be a DX-based character (ie. one that uses speed, dodge and acrobatics instead of heavy armour. In the normal rules you can simply pump your DX and it makes you good at all those thing s AND combat skills. By your system, having such a character would be very expensive as they have to buy Acrobatics and Weapon skills from the ground up. It might help that Acrobatics is set so low, but then, that might also be a problem as acrobatics is a really powerful skill. You would have to reprice IQ and DX, as neither have much use now. I think it can work, you 'll have to try it out in practise though. :)

03-01-2013, 03:46 AM	#6
Walrus Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia	Re: Pricing Skills Based On Utility Though, somewhat contrary to my previous post, there are some skills which are priced on their real-life availability, "complexity". So, yes, Guns are easier than Bow and Bow is easier than Sling or Blowpipe but it's so in real life. Archers were elite troops because bow requires a lot skill to use. Crossbows were "devil's weapon" because they are easy to point and shoot. Colonel Colt equalized people in rights and rifle infantry were just volunteers with a month course or even without one. So, you may see some inner "UB" in Bow skill because it isn't so widespread and hitting a foe from afar is great advantage. And even while usual dungeon somewhat negate that advantage this doesn't mean that Scout should have a discount, it just means that he must involve more tactics than just shoot them one by one. __________________ MH Setting. Welcome to help.

03-01-2013, 07:35 AM	#9
~~Figleaf23~~ Banned Join Date: Apr 2008	Re: Pricing Skills Based On Utility In most games I run, I ask players to build characters who 'come from somewhere', ie. they're not optimized stat-blocks, they're characters in a literary sense. Generally, this involves putting some points into traits relevant to that existence irrespective of it's foreseeable utility in the campaign. For a 150 point character this could be as little as 3-5 points or so. Characterization is important for our style of play and we like to see an obscure skill suddenly making a difference in a game session. We do this on purpose, even with the current pricing for skills, so I don't think we'd have a need for this system.

03-01-2013, 07:57 AM	#10
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Re: Pricing Skills Based On Utility I agree with Gollum in recommending Tri-Stat, though the version I've used is the one in Big Eyes Small Mouth 2/e. It's very handy for fitting skill costs to a genre and milieu. What they do is define typical costs for ALL skills in a number of genres that are common in anime, from space opera to high school drama. Then you pick the closest fit. Bill Stoddard