(Modular and Alternate) Abilities

[SCAR]

Does it seem reasonable to build a version of Modular Abilities which can only be 'loaded' with abilities already bought as part of a set of Alternate Abilities?

Slotted Cosmic Power is [7+5*], if this was Limited: to Abilities bought as part of a specific set of Alternate Abilities (which I'm going to call a medium-sized class related abilities, which is -30%), and reduce to [5] points per slot - since 7 is for 'anything', and 5 is a 'lengthy catalog', that seems resonable).

So;
Slotted Modular Alternate Abilities is [5+5*] (Limited, -30%) - ALSO, I'm basing the Point Cost of the ability going into the slot on the AA Cost (i.e. 1/5), not the Full Cost!

(I'm going to ignore the possibilities of Physical and Social modifiers on the MA for now, to keep things simpler)

Since AA's have already been paid for (at least in part, i.e. 20%), the Limited seems OK; and paying [5] points per point of an AA Ability, is effectively paying back the -80% discount (when the ability was bought), with a little interest, so we're not really getting a Point Crock (although the Limited, -30% does squeeze it if you only have 2 abilities in the AA!)

This MA does violate the limitation on AA's prohibiting multiple use, but you've paid enough points to have bought the abilities at full cost, so it doesn't seem broken.

Any thoughts?

[munin]

While I think it's perfectly okay to use a modular ability to allocate alternative abilities to existing abilities, I wouldn't give points back for limiting the MA to AAs except to reflect the fact that the in-game explanation for the AA must be compatible with the primary trait (e.g., an AA to a laser ability must be laser-like: light, burning, etc.), and then the limitation should reflect the specific comprehensiveness of that category.

But a MA that can allocate an AA to any trait has no real restrictions on what traits it can allocate, so shouldn't get a point break. The "lengthy catalog" slot cost covers the restriction to AAs well enough.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by munin

While I think it's perfectly okay to use a modular ability to allocate alternative abilities to existing abilities, I wouldn't give points back for limiting the MA to AAs except to reflect the fact that the in-game explanation for the AA must be compatible with the primary trait (e.g., an AA to a laser ability must be laser-like: light, burning, etc.), and then the limitation should reflect the specific comprehensiveness of that category.

But a MA that can allocate an AA to any trait has no real restrictions on what traits it can allocate, so shouldn't get a point break. The "lengthy catalog" slot cost covers the restriction to AAs well enough.

I'm not using MA to allocate AAs to existing abilities. I'm using an existing set of AAs that the character has bought as the source of abilities which can be loaded into the MA slots. I'm basically finding a mechanical way to support using more than 1 ability from a set of AAs at the same time.

Using DF as the example; A character who has bought Divine Favor, and a set of Learned Prayers as Alternate Abilities. The MA can be loaded with LPs which have already been bought (at 1/5 cost), but by loading them into the MA, you've 'effectively' paid the point cost to be allowed to use the ability independently of the primary Divine Favor ability. That's the idea anyway.

As for applying the Trait Limited Limitation, the Slot cost (which is a one off cost per slot, not per point of ability) applies to ALL modular abilities - so for example Super-Memorization has a 5 point base cost per slot, which by Powers describes 'a lengthy catalog', but the Medium Size Class of Abilities -30% can be applied to Super-Memorization (which also affects the Cost per Point).
If the 2 were supposed to represent the same sort of limit on the list of abilities, then the Trait-Limited modifier would surely only be allowed on one of the Cosmic MAs, which start at a base cost for 'Any' Abilities. Since nothing in Powers restricts the use of Trait-Limited to MA's with per slot costs for 'any Abilities', then I see no reason why it cannot be applied in this scenario.

The list of abilities which can be used by the MA is the existing set of AAs (in the DF example, the set of Learned Prayers the character has already paid for) - this seems prefectly reasonable as a 'medium-sized class of related abilities' for the Trait Limited -30%; independent of the [5] point base cost per slot.

[munin]

Whew. Okay, if I understand your use of Limited, then I think it makes sense. A catalog of "bought abilities" might even qualify as a "short list" (4/slot), but 5/slot is probably safer. (do we have any RAW examples of short list MAs?)

But (and maybe this is what you mean), the only way to use an MA to allow you to use more than one ability from an AA simultaneously is to allocate the remainder of an ability's full cost.

For example, if you have an AA consisting of A [25] + B [5] + C [5], you'd need to "improve" B by 20 points in order to use both A and B at the same time.

So, if you've paid 3 points to buy the 15-point Protection From Evil learned prayer as an AA to Divine Favor, you'd have to allocate 12 points to be able to use them both at the same time.

Does that sound like what you're doing?

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by munin

Whew. Okay, if I understand your use of Limited, then I think it makes sense. A catalog of "bought abilities" might even qualify as a "short list" (4/slot), but 5/slot is probably safer. (do we have any RAW examples of short list MAs?)

But (and maybe this is what you mean), the only way to use an MA to allow you to use more than one ability from an AA simultaneously is to allocate the remainder of an ability's full cost.

For example, if you have an AA consisting of A [25] + B [5] + C [5], you'd need to "improve" B by 20 points in order to use both A and B at the same time.

So, if you've paid 3 points to buy the 15-point Protection From Evil learned prayer as an AA to Divine Favor, you'd have to allocate 12 points to be able to use them both at the same time.

Does that sound like what you're doing?

Sort of, in a roundabout way, in an attempt to keep the usage logic simpler.
The MA uses 5 points per point of ability, that's more than the 4 points per 5 points of the Full Cost for the ability.
By using the final LP cost, you don't need to figure out the discounted points.
It is using the MA points per point of ability as the 'missing' points, which may well be abusing the MA.
Paying the full difference cost, 12 points for your Protection from Evil example, x5 plus the base 5 for the slot, even with the 30% limitation, is 46 points, to use a 15 point ability, which just isn't worth it. You might as well just build a version of Divine Favor which uses Modular Abilities directly for the full cost LP's, and be able to use any and all LP abilities you can load into your MA.

[munin]

Originally Posted by SCAR

...Paying the full difference cost, 12 points for your Protection from Evil example, x5 plus the base 5 for the slot, even with the 30% limitation, is 46 points, to use a 15 point ability, which just isn't worth it.

It's not 42 points to use a 15-point ability, it's 42 points to use any 15-point ability you've learned as an LP. If you've only got one LP, that's not a good deal. If you've got dozens, it's a great deal.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by munin

It's not 42 points to use a 15-point ability, it's 42 points to use any 15-point ability you've learned as an LP. If you've only got one LP, that's not a good deal. If you've got dozens, it's a great deal.

Actually, No, it really isn't.

1. For ZERO Points, I can use any of the 15 point (or less) abilities I've already learned and paid for as LPs, as AAs of the main DF Ability. All the MA is trying to give me is the ability to use one at the same time as the main DF or another AA.

2. For 56 Points, I can buy a single 15 plot MA Slot; (modifying the Limitation to any Divine Favor LP, and not just those you've already learned as AAs - taking the full list of LPs in the main DF book as the base, I think that's still fair as a -30% limitation); I can now use ANY LP up to 15 points, without first having to learn it as an AA to Divine Favor, and I have no restrictions on multiple use.

For 2 extra points we can change the version of MA to Slotted Cosmic Power (which is a published version of MA and costs [7+5*], and since it starts off appling to ANY ability, the limitation to DF/LPs seems reasonable), just in case my version of MA seems off for any reason!

The [42] point ability really doesn't look much good !

3. Comparing MA to AA for a Divine Favor Build;

Divine Favor already uses AAs, so - to buy Divine Favor 16 and ALL of the LPs in the core book will cost [629] Points

Buying a single Slot MA to hold up to a 228 point abiility, (not 200, since Earthquake is a 228 point ability), with -30% Limitation, will cost [802] Points - which allows you to use one of Divine Favor 16 or any of the LPs (as full cost abilities) at a time, with a 1 second switch. - almost the same as the standard AA version of DF above, but for more points, and with a 1 second switch between abilities before use!

(A 200 point MA Slot would cost [704] Points)

If you can squeeze the Modifiers to -46%, the MA is just cheaper than the AA version.

Yes, the MA version can be used for any other LPs the GM allows for, but you've got an extra 173 points to play with before you get to the same cost as the MA, thats 4x Level 16 LPs, or many more lower ones; and the AA does not have the 1 second switch between abilities which the MA does!

Now the MA can be easily expanded to Multiple Slots, which the AA does not directly support, but that gets even more expensive.

It really makes you wonder how big the pool of abilities has to be before MA becomes a better buy that AAs; yes AAs technically need to have a consistent theme, but Divine Favor has demonstrated this can be a common source with a wide variety of different AA abilities, so it's possible to make AAs work more flexibly.

Note: If you recalculate the MA for each Level of DF, and use a [200] point slot for Level 16, the Point Cost for the MA is actually pretty close to the AA version (DF plus all LPs up to the level of DF)

[the_matrix_walker]

Unless I am misreading, it sounds like you want to lower the Slotted Cosmic MA cos based on restricting the list, and then use the same criteria to add a limitation to the MA. Doing both is double dipping.

It also seems like you want to buy abilities in the MA at 1/5th point cost for being alternative abilities, and then use them simultaneously with other Alternative Abilities. And of course, you can't use more than one alternative at the same time, even if you buy it twice (two fifths is obviously not full price), unless it is Alternative to something different.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Unless I am misreading, it sounds like you want to lower the Slotted Cosmic MA cos based on restricting the list, and then use the same criteria to add a limitation to the MA. Doing both is double dipping.

No, as I already covered - Powers lists the Per Slot costs based on the scope of the abilities list, were 7 is 'anything', and 5 is 'lengthy catalog' - which is a fixed single cost per slot, not a per point cost; AND as an entirely independent factor, the Limited Limitation, (which can be applied twice for Scope and Trait), to the full cost of the MA.
They're different things, and the first is a part of ALL MAs, the second can be applied to ANY MA.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

It also seems like you want to buy abilities in the MA at 1/5th point cost for being alternative abilities, and then use them simultaneously with other Alternative Abilities. And of course, you can't use more than one alternative at the same time, even if you buy it twice (two fifths is obviously not full price), unless it is Alternative to something different.

Not entirely - The AAs have already been paid for (as AAs) - for the example as bought LPs. The MA is attempting to Pay (or count as paid) a sufficiency of points to allow the AA to be used as an independent ability (i.e. not restricted by being an AA).

The idea is for the MA to pull an AA ability from the set, paying the extra points to allow for its use independently.

I am fudging the use of the MA point pool to count as the extra points, but it doesn't seem unreasonable when the AA abilites have to have been bought in the first place.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by SCAR

No, as I already covered - Powers lists the Per Slot costs based on the scope of the abilities list, were 7 is 'anything', and 5 is 'lengthy catalog' - which is a fixed single cost per slot, not a per point cost; AND as an entirely independent factor, the Limited Limitation, (which can be applied twice for Scope and Trait), to the full cost of the MA.
They're different things, and the first is a part of ALL MAs, the second can be applied to ANY MA.

Yes, first you determine the overall possibilities to set the per slot cost. Then you can apply Trait and Focus based modifiers that limit it to a subset of the original options. If your list determined by your slot cost is not further limited by the trait limitation, it's not worth more points.

You don't have all the details of the ability posted, so it's hard to determine if that's what you're doing, but that's how it seemed from the OP.

Originally Posted by SCAR

Not entirely - The AAs have already been paid for (as AAs) - for the example as bought LPs. The MA is attempting to Pay (or count as paid) a sufficiency of points to allow the AA to be used as an independent ability (i.e. not restricted by being an AA).

The idea is for the MA to pull an AA ability from the set, paying the extra points to allow for its use independently.

Ok, I misunderstood, I thought you were paying 1/5th again in the pool, not making up the 4/5ths not paid before by the AA. If you are paying the 4/5, then there's no issue.

Originally Posted by SCAR

I am fudging the use of the MA point pool to count as the extra points, but it doesn't seem unreasonable when the AA abilites have to have been bought in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.