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Old 07-30-2017, 03:29 AM   #21
jacobmuller
 
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

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Originally Posted by TimTimmy View Post
I never know which edition the answers are for, and which world the game is in.
Assume 4th edition unless the writer specifically says it's not.
GURPS doesn't really have game worlds but the likely official settings won't alter the rules as written (RAW).
If you haven't read the unofficial FAQ (it's among the first few threads of this forum) it's always good to reread - surprising what it contains and it gets updated.
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Old 07-30-2017, 07:49 AM   #22
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I'm afraid neither use of Luck you suggested is valid - all Enchantment spells are ceremonial casting automatically, and Luck is specifically disallowed to affect the results of ceremonial casting. See "Notes on Ceremonial Magic", Magic p. 12.

If you're looking for faster enchanting options, I'd strongly recommend asking your GM about some of the options in Thaumatology. They may even choose to allow some of the options presented there on an individual character basis, rather than the whole world, based on you buying something like a perk or Unusual Background advantage. One good option to point out, if they're worried about the setting effects of mages being able to quickly make enchanted items, is the "Spending of Yourself" rules (Thaumatology, p. 109). Basically, they let you lose advantages or attributes, or gain disadvantages, and convert the character points from this into energy, at a rate of 1 CP = 25 energy. So 400 energy would end up costing 16 character points. Expensive, perhaps, but depending on the exact setting details, you may be able to buy the lost advantages back, or gain only some of the energy this way - if you and a circle of 5 other mages could each offer 20 energy, for example, through FP and Powerstones, that leaves only 280 energy left, which would only cost 12 points.

Spending of Yourself tends to have less effects on the setting, because few mages are enthusiastic about, say, losing a level of ST and a level of Per to fuel a 400-point enchantment. But you, as a player, can more easily make that decision.
I would not be happy about losing attributes/character points to achieve enchanting.

Thanks for proving the page number: "Ceremonial magic may not be assisted with Wishes, Luck, or Bless spells. In general, magic cannot affect or predict the outcome of a ceremonial ritual." It sure seems they are talking about the Luck spell, and not the advantage. I can easily see how a reasonable GM would ban the advantage use as well.

How about this other "trick": Take the Doesn't Sleep Advantage. While the rest of the party is sleeping, you enchant (1 FP/day) and then adventure with them during the day without using forcing downtime on the group.

* Also, thanks for all the help from everyone.

Last edited by TimTimmy; 07-30-2017 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

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Originally Posted by TimTimmy View Post
I would not be happy about losing attributes/character points to achieve enchanting.

Thanks for proving the page number: "Ceremonial magic may not be assisted with Wishes, Luck, or Bless spells. In general, magic cannot affect or predict the outcome of a ceremonial ritual." It sure seems they are talking about the Luck spell, and not the advantage. I can easily see how a reasonable GM would ban the advantage use as well.

How about this other "trick": Take the Doesn't Sleep Advantage. While the rest of the party is sleeping, you enchant (1 FP/day) and then adventure with them during the day without using forcing downtime on the group.

* Also, thanks for all the help from everyone.
There is no "Luck" Spell to get confused with the Advantage. The original writer (who was probably Steve Jackson himself c. thirty years ago) meant the Luck Advantage. I emphasize the age of this rule to suggest that this has all been thrashed out in the online Gurps community long ago.
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:40 AM   #24
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

One interesting side note is that GMs could use considerations like these to figure out what the character point total of their game out to be.

If they want to be able to have PC wizards who can have built up substantially enchanted and defended wizards' towers, then they have to think about the economics and power needed for a wizard to have been able to do that. This will lead to some seriously high point totals, of course.
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

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Originally Posted by TimTimmy View Post
How about this other "trick": Take the Doesn't Sleep Advantage. While the rest of the party is sleeping, you enchant (1 FP/day) and then adventure with them during the day without using forcing downtime on the group.
It "works," so long as the GM lets you take the the Doesn't Sleep advantage. If you can't get back to the item you're enchanting for some reason you lose the "days" casting (which requires two make-up days; p. 18 of Magic). If you're carrying the item with you and it gets lost or stolen you lose days castings until you can get it back. If it's broken while carrying it around it's ruined. If you're interrupted in the middle of the 8-hour "shift" while enchanting you not only lose the day's casting you are also fatigued (again, see p. 18 of Magic). If you try to put together a circle to do the enchanting all the other mages must be present during your nighttime castings, which generally means you need to go back to a base camp instead of adventuring around the countryside with an entourage. So there's a lot of risks to trying to enchant while adventuring.
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:53 AM   #26
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

Doesn't Sleep tends to be one of those things that is only available as a racial trait in a lot of settings.

Really, if the campaign is supposed to feature enchanting you should probably just do it during downtime. You should ask your GM if they even want you to be enchanting in the first place, if they do, then you should make it clear that there needs to be enough downtime.
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Old 07-30-2017, 09:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I'm afraid neither use of Luck you suggested is valid - all Enchantment spells are ceremonial casting automatically, and Luck is specifically disallowed to affect the results of ceremonial casting. See "Notes on Ceremonial Magic", Magic p. 12.
I do not believe this is true. The notes on ceremonial magic call out the SPELL luck as being unable to affect enchanting (a sentiment that would be repeating in RPM for 'magic cannot increase magic'). This does NOT interact with the ADVANTAGE luck.

As for how with ~300 extra character points you can build a caster who can make enchanted items quickly... Duplication is a good option of increasing your effective 'spell delivery', as is compartmentalized mind (and notably those will multiply together if you have both)
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
I do not believe this is true. The notes on ceremonial magic call out the SPELL luck
As mentioned by Fred Brackin, there is no spell called "Luck." Never has been. The only things in GURPS called "Luck" is the Advantage and the Elixir (which gives you the effects of the advantage Luck).

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The original writer (who was probably Steve Jackson himself c. thirty years ago) meant the Luck Advantage.
GURPS Fantasy 1st Edition, copyright 1986 and written by Steve Jackson introduced the magic system for GURPS. This particular rule has remained unchanged since that publication.
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Last edited by ericbsmith; 07-30-2017 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:26 AM   #29
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

The Luck elixir certainly seems more magical than the advantage. The next sentence "In general, magic cannot affect or predict the outcome of a ceremonial ritual." would imply the Elixir to me. DM is the final call of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
I do not believe this is true. The notes on ceremonial magic call out the SPELL luck as being unable to affect enchanting (a sentiment that would be repeating in RPM for 'magic cannot increase magic'). This does NOT interact with the ADVANTAGE luck.

As for how with ~300 extra character points you can build a caster who can make enchanted items quickly... Duplication is a good option of increasing your effective 'spell delivery', as is compartmentalized mind (and notably those will multiply together if you have both)
Duplication would probably apply to a superhero campaign. If allowed, can that be my assistant?

Could you use you Compartmentalized Mind to be your own assistant?

Do the above two get their own FP? and FP regen?
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:40 AM   #30
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Default Re: High Magic Spells

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Originally Posted by TimTimmy View Post
The Luck elixir certainly seems more magical than the advantage. The next sentence "In general, magic cannot affect or predict the outcome of a ceremonial ritual." would imply the Elixir to me. DM is the final call of course.
The Luck Elixir didn't exist when the rule was originally written (it is not in Fantasy 1e), and wasn't referred to as the Luck elixir until the current edition of Magic (older editions labeled elixirs by their Latin names first, with "Elixir of..." in parentheses after the Latin name). You guys are stretching it, but you are wrong. The intent of the rule is clear, you may not manipulate the final success roll of a Ceremonial spell or Enchantment. And it was written with the "In general..." clause to avoid the types of abuses you are trying to meta-game here.
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