A Dungeoneering Fan, but a Total Gurps Newbie

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Hello, everyone.

I've never played GURPS, before.

My RPG experience is limited to all of the versions of D&D from Mentzer Basic, to 3.5, Pathfinder, and 5th Edition; but not 4E D&D.

I've seen GURPS mentioned on the forums at Paizo and Enworld. Some say that it is more complicated than Pathfinder. So, my first question is, is GURPS really more complicated than Pathfinder?

I've read GURPS Light, but haven't totally understood it, but I think the 3d6 system appears to be somewhat more balanced than Pathfinder and other forms of D&D. Is it more balanced?

Also, Pathfinder has a lot of class options, however one of the drawbacks seems to be the class system, itself. I have players who take 3 or more classes just to realize a concept. Am I correct in thinking that GURPS makes it easier to realize a concept because it's not class and level based?

Also, I've read parts of the threads here about converting things like Rappan Athuk to GURPS and it sounds like those in the know find it somewhat easy to do. How long would it take to gain enough system mastery with GURPS to convert the Swords & Wizardry version of Rappan Athuk to GURPS?

I'm primarily interested in Dungeon Fantasy, but I can see my players eventually liking the idea of exploring other genres, which seems to be a strong point with GURPS. Having watched Pathfinder evolve into Starfinder and the subtle rules changes that were involved, I think I am in favor of a more stable system for all genres. GURPS seems like it will fit that bill. If I start with the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Boxed Set will it provide the guidance I'd need to get used to the GURPS system, character generation, combat, exploration, etc... and prepare me to move to other genres using GURPS?

That said, there are a lot of supplements to GURPS. Am I right in guessing that these forums would be a great place to ask for guidance on which supplements are recommended for a given genre?

Thanks in advance.

Hrothgar

[mr beer]

GURPS is best described as a toolkit for a system rather than a system. Herein lies the problem because there are dozens of supplements, which leads a bewildering array of choices. It's extremely helpful to get guidance for which supplements to use for given settings.

Based on your post, I recommend the DF set as a jumping off point because its self contained. It's also better at doing D&D than D&D is, in my opinion, specifically the system is better at combat and more interesting.

A recurring theme that makes GURPS much easier to use for newer places and GMs is the notion of character templates. These are effectively a sort of quasi-'class'. So the template will be for a certain number of points, for a type of character (or NPC) and will specify certain pre-bought characteristics and guide optional points buys.

To answer other questions:

- GURPS is both more and less complicated than Pathfinder. It's a cleaner, more intuitive and more consistent system. The sheer number of possible game options is much broader, though there is a lot less 'class based' information.

- 'more balanced' - possibly for a given value of 'balanced'. Being a points buy system you would think equal points = equal utility, but this depends vastly upon the setting and what restrictions a GM puts into place.

- no classes, yes it's generally easier to realise a concept in GURPS than other systems.

- 'system mastery' is a slippery term, it's going to depend on how quickly you come to grips with systems, how much time you spend doing so and how much effort you want to put into conversion.

- these forums are an excellent resource for GURPS questions.

The above answers hint at issues new GURPS users will encounter, which is why I recommend getting the DF box set. It will remove the problems of having to make rules choices.

Again, these forums are an excellent resource for any GURPS-based questions you have.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Hrothgar Rannúlfr

I've seen GURPS mentioned on the forums at Paizo and Enworld. Some say that it is more complicated than Pathfinder. So, my first question is, is GURPS really more complicated than Pathfinder?

For the player, nor much, for the GM it depends because GURPS is more of a toolkit for running games than a single game. Dungeon Fantasy, however is considerably simpler than PFRPG, IMO. It's closer to a OSR game than it is to PFRPG.

I've read GURPS Light, but haven't totally understood it, but I think the 3d6 system appears to be somewhat more balanced than Pathfinder and other forms of D&D. Is it more balanced?

Because of the way probability works rolling two or more dice and totalling them has more predictable outcomes than rolling one die. This is because on 1d20 there is exactly one way to roll a "10" whereas there are 27 ways on 3d6. 3d6's probability curve is very close to a bell curve distribution, which makes it like a lot of probabilities in the real world.

So in GURPS and Dungeon Fantasy the chance of success doesn't increase linearly with each +1 to skill, it increases very slowly at the extreme low and high levels, and increases quickly for middle levels. In PFRPG, conversely each +1 is exactly +5%.

Also, Pathfinder has a lot of class options, however one of the drawbacks seems to be the class system, itself. I have players who take 3 or more classes just to realize a concept. Am I correct in thinking that GURPS makes it easier to realize a concept because it's not class and level based?

The default way to play Dungeon Fantasy is with occupational templates that roughly correspond to classes (although they are both more effective and more customizable than 1st level PFRPG characters). There are no levels though, and players can spend their earned points on development however they wish (subject to certain restrictions).

It does give the optional rule to allow characters to made off template, and buy everything à la carte.

Also, I've read parts of the threads here about converting things like Rappan Athuk to GURPS and it sounds like those in the know find it somewhat easy to do. How long would it take to gain enough system mastery with GURPS to convert the Swords & Wizardry version of Rappan Athuk to GURPS?

Difficult to say, and it depends on your tolerance for "good enough". Using Kromm's suggestion for how to convert treasure might take decades with both systems. I have decades and I don't know how I would do it. :)

If you are willing to make quick and dirty decisions like "every 20 gp in the original is one gold coin" then pretty much instantly, I think.

If I start with the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Boxed Set will it provide the guidance I'd need to get used to the GURPS system, character generation, combat, exploration, etc... and prepare me to move to other genres using GURPS?

It will give you some familiarity, but you will still need to get the Basic Set volumes when you want to run a really different game.

That said, there are a lot of supplements to GURPS. Am I right in guessing that these forums would be a great place to ask for guidance on which supplements are recommended for a given genre?

Yes, absolutely!

[Turhan's Bey Company]

I'll point out that there's a subtle distinction here. The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game is a stand-alone product which is 99% compatible with the full GURPS system. It contains a lot less than the full system, but it is much more focused on stuff that's relevant to dungeon delving. So, then, there are going to be different answers to some of these questions for GURPS and for the DFRPG.

Originally Posted by Hrothgar Rannúlfr

So, my first question is, is GURPS really more complicated than Pathfinder?

GURPS front-loads a lot of its complexity, so making a character is a non-trivial amount of work. In play, though, it's surprisingly easy because you've gotten a lot of that stuff out of the way.

Building a character in the DFRPG is somewhat easier than in pure GURPS because it's template-driven. That is, you've got a series of ready-made menus. There are still some choices to make (say, pick 3 of these 4 skills and spend 20 points on anything in this category), but being far more focused, it's far easier to get up and running.

Originally Posted by Hrothgar Rannúlfr

I've read GURPS Light, but haven't totally understood it, but I think the 3d6 system appears to be somewhat more balanced than Pathfinder and other forms of D&D. Is it more balanced?

Eh. 3d6, roll low, is a mechanic, like 1d20, roll high. Balance comes from how it gets used. I happen to really like how it gets utilized.

Originally Posted by Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Am I correct in thinking that GURPS makes it easier to realize a concept because it's not class and level based?

GURPS is WAY more flexible. Even in the cut-down DFRPG, you've got a large catalog of individually priced traits, so you can strike whatever balance between sets of abilities you want. Now, there can still be some trial and error because it may turn out that combining an Arcane Watermelon-Hurler with a High Dark Pixie creates some weird synergies in play which just aren't apparent during creation, but at least you know exactly which parts go into it and how much it all costs.

Originally Posted by Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Also, I've read parts of the threads here about converting things like Rappan Athuk to GURPS and it sounds like those in the know find it somewhat easy to do.

I'm gonna say no. At least, not in the way you're thinking. Different systems are built on entirely different assumptions, so a pure mechanical translation may make no sense whatsoever. However, one of the skills you get from GURPS is breaking down an expression of an idea (a trap, a monster, a spell, etc.) into its functional parts, which in turn makes it easy to express it in GURPS. For example, the idea of "draining a level" makes zero sense in GURPS, but it could be translated in a number of different ways in GURPS appropriate to the overall theme of the ability, adventure, or whatever.

Originally Posted by Hrothgar Rannúlfr

If I start with the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Boxed Set will it provide the guidance I'd need to get used to the GURPS system, character generation, combat, exploration, etc... and prepare me to move to other genres using GURPS?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Hrothgar Rannúlfr

That said, there are a lot of supplements to GURPS. Am I right in guessing that these forums would be a great place to ask for guidance on which supplements are recommended for a given genre?

Sweet merciful Jebus, yes.

[AlexanderHowl]

With players that are new to GURPS, I tend to make them give me a detailed outline of what they imagine the character is good at and a detailed background. I will make the character for them (it takes me half an hour at worst in most games) and then spend a half hour explaining to them the capabilities of their character. I usually give them five sessions to tweak the character to fit their specifications or to replace the character with one that they have designed (in which the original character becomes just another NPC).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

GURPS front-loads a lot of its complexity, so making a character is a non-trivial amount of work. In play, though, it's surprisingly easy because you've gotten a lot of that stuff out of the way.

I'm going to note that how this compares to the D&D family depends a lot on how you go about your D&D character building. If you just want to build a level one (or even maybe level 5) character, it may be a fair bit lighter than putting together your starting GURPS character. If you're planning 15-20 levels deep into your progression through a mildly intricate build in a 3rd/3.5/PF build, the GURPS character is going to look simple and straightforward...

[sir_pudding]

GURPS combat often feels simpler, there's no AoOs, there's a simple rule for shooting upwards and downwards that doesn't involve Pythagoras, actions are much less abstract so it is much easier to understand what is supposed to be happening, facing matters, injury is just injury, defense is defense, and armor reduces damage.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

GURPS combat often feels simpler, there's no AoOs, there's a simple rule for shooting upwards and downwards that doesn't involve Pythagoras, actions are much less abstract so it is much easier to understand what is supposed to be happening, facing matters, injury is just injury, defense is defense, and armor reduces damage.

GURPS is so simple in combat for people some think it's complicated when they first play. I recently wrote a combat primer for a few people and they thought I was hiding hidden rules! XD

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

GURPS combat often feels simpler, there's no AoOs, there's a simple rule for shooting upwards and downwards that doesn't involve Pythagoras, actions are much less abstract so it is much easier to understand what is supposed to be happening, facing matters, injury is just injury, defense is defense, and armor reduces damage.

This honestly addresses a major complaint that my longest running player has with D&D and it's variants. So, this is a plus!

[Stone Dog]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I recently wrote a combat primer for a few people and they thought I was hiding hidden rules! XD

Did you post it anywhere? These sorts of things could help out a lot!

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

there's a simple rule for shooting upwards and downwards that doesn't involve Pythagoras,

Never mind, tired and blanked out. Firing Upward and Downward (p. 407)