Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-03-2019, 11:44 AM   #81
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post

It could be argued that Wealth should be an attribute rather than an advantage, considering how essential it is to most character concepts. With 10 CP/-10 CP per level and increments of 2/5/10, you could have a smoother transition than with the default advantage. A character with Wealth 6 would earn 5% as someone with Wealth 10 and a character with Wealth 14 would earn 20x as much as someone with Wealth 10.
Indeed, I did argue it – and in several different ways, even. See External Social Attributes, p. 26.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 11:53 AM   #82
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

Needless to say, there's a lot of potential in treating Status, Wealth, and/or Social Standing as an attribute; defining the skills these scores control or affect; providing game mechanics for "raw" attribute rolls against these things (notably rolls to acquire stuff, with modifiers for price, legality, and so on); and defining a Resource Points, err, resource figured from such an attribute that's expended on gear, services, and social influence, and has job-roll-like mechanics for its regeneration. So much so that I couldn't possibly fit it all into a supplement about attributes in general! I think it would make a good GURPS Social Engineering supplement (GURPS Social Engineering: Alternate Social Standing?), either on its own or alongside a few other possible revamps of Wealth and Status.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 01:56 PM   #83
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Needless to say, there's a lot of potential in treating Status, Wealth, and/or Social Standing as an attribute;
I liked the Abstract Wealth article, but thought it was too much book keeping for what it did. Making Wealth as an attribute though might have made the difference. I'd certainly buy the book.
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 02:48 PM   #84
dataweaver
 
dataweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

I'll adjust my earlier suggestion about a third kind of “external social trait” along with Wealth and Status: originally, I had suggested something along the lines of knowledge or secrets; as in, someone with this trait is very much in the know about what's going on, even tending to know secrets about the setting.

My revised suggestion is that this third External Attribute should be Connections, and should borrow heavily from Social Engineering: Keeping in Contact: everyone knows someone (unless you're the Connection equivalent of Dead Broke or Status -2, a hermit), but some people seem to know everyone; and what they don't know personally, they know who to ask. So the three External Attributes would be Wealth, Status, and Connections.
__________________
Point balance is a myth.[1][2][3][4]
dataweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 03:11 PM   #85
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

The real trick to making it work is to keep it simpler than tracking money. By which I mean something like:
Social Standing (SS)
20 points/level

Each level different from 10 shifts your Status away from Average by one line on the table on p. B517. Strictly speaking, it does the same for Wealth! But except for starting gear, that concept is replaced by SS rolls to buy goods, services, and influence: Roll vs. SS at the listed penalty (p. 00).

The GM may also require SS rolls – again, possibly at a penalty – whenever you attempt to join a club, enter a site or event, or obtain an interview, job, or other opportunity that your society considers "exclusive." Examples include things like obtaining reservations at fancy restaurants, being accepted at the country club, and having your résumé for an executive position read rather than shredded. In all but the most egalitarian societies, it also includes running for public office!

Finally, SS replaces IQ as the attribute governing Connoisseur, Current Affairs (Business, High Culture, People, and Politics), Finance, Heraldry, and Savoir-Faire (High Society). Other skills of a social or financial character – Influence skills, plus Administration, Carousing, Gambling, Leadership, Market Analysis, Merchant, Propaganda, Public Speaking, etc. – remain based on their standard attributes, but the GM may "float" rolls to SS whenever your social position carries more weight than your actions or words. Politics could go on either list, depending on how egalitarian your society is.

Resource Points (RP)
2 points/level

These start equal to your SS. You cannot raise or lower RP by more than 1/3 of your SS, dropping fractions. For instance, someone with SS 13 could have from RP 9 to RP 17.

To purchase something, roll vs. SS, at -1 for 10% of campaign-average starting money, -2 at 20%, -3 at 50%, -4 at 100%, and so on, plus the special modifiers on p. 00. Notably, repeated attempts are at a cumulative -1 if you've already tried and failed to obtain that item or service since your last recovery roll. You cannot roll if the penalty takes you below 3 or if your RP are at 0 for any reason. In theory, even an average person (SS 10) could at least try a roll at -7, or 10× starting money (e.g., for a $10,000 item in TL3 fantasy or a $200,000 home at TL8), but only a multimillionaire with SS 15 could roll at -12 for 500× starting money (e.g., a $10 million mansion at TL8), and only someone at the top of the social pyramid, with SS 18, could roll at -15 for 5,000× starting money (e.g., something worth $100 million). Greater purchases require the tricks on p. 00.

On any success, you obtain the item or service. On an ordinary failure, you obtain it but lose RP equal to margin of failure; if this would cause your RP to fall below 0, you lose no RP but don't obtain the item, and trying again counts as a repeated attempt. Critical failure – and remember, failure by 10+ is critical failure – means you lose RP equal to your margin of failure, to a minimum RP of 0, and get nothing. You were scammed, overextended your credit, or similar.

Each month, make a job roll against SS to recover RP. Various jobs give modifiers to this roll (p. 00), but also have stiffer prerequisites, which might include skills or minimum levels of SS. Any success restores RP equal to the margin of success, to a maximum of your original RP. Ordinary failure has no effect. Critical failure costs you 1 RP, or if you're already at 0 RP, means a social catastrophe: lost job, audit, arrest . . . anything the GM likes!

As well, the GM may allow players to spend RP "on the spot" for Buying Success and Player Guidance (p. B347) – and possibly on some of the things in GURPS Power-Ups 5: Impulse Buys (see p. 00 for ideas) – as if they were character points. This is only possible in social situations. Normally, it represents bribery to succeed at a task, or altering the scene or world in a way that makes sense for money or influence. For instance, someone who fails at Streetwise might spend 1 RP to turn it to success, while someone who succeeds at an Administration roll might spend 2 RP and declare, "And then the company security guards show up, saving me from the thugs."
. . . except all that's probably really broken and full of weevils, so somebody better at this stuff than me would have to improve on it. And provide the "p. 00s." And rules for restoring RP by selling stuff, and permanently raising RP by cashing in earnings/goods and spending points.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 03:28 PM   #86
dataweaver
 
dataweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

Speaking of Impulse Buys, there's also the matter of some sort of Luck Attribute, vaguely similar to FP: see the Impulse Control article in Pyramid 3/100 for an Advantage-based version of this.

But given the priciness of each level, I wouldn't make it a subattribute or calculated value — or if it is calculated, it needs to be done in such a way that the default value is 0 and you have to pay a bunch of points in the controlling trait to increase it. For instance, if you implement a Faith attribute and implement an Impulse Points pool based off of it for use with the Divine Intervention Impulse Buy, you won't be getting one Impulse Point per level of Faith; it will be something more like (Faith - 10)/5, or something.
__________________
Point balance is a myth.[1][2][3][4]
dataweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 09:12 PM   #87
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

So here is another idea based on this book.
Awareness
20 points/level (starts at 10)
You are extremely aware of thngs and always paying attention, even to minor details others over look. This starts at 10 and costs 20 points per level.
It is the controlling attribute for skills based purely on perception and observation as well as Per rolls.
For many skills a keen awareness of whats happening is important but another attribute such as IQ or DX are also fundamental, this includes skill where analysis and reaction are important.

Controlling (Any Per based): Blind Fighting, Body Language, Detect Lies, Esoteric Medicine, Fishing, Observation, Scrounging, Search, Survival, Tracking, Urban Survival.

Combined Traits (Awareness + IQ)/2 or (Awareness + DX)/2 or (Awareness + DX)/2: Accounting, Administration, Animal Handling, Area Knowledge, Artist, Bicycling, Boating, Body Sense, Camouflage, Carousing, Climbing, Combat skills, Connoisseur, Computer Operation, Criminology, Cryptography, Current Affairs, Dancing, Diagnosis, Diplomacy, Disguise, Dreaming, Driving, Electronics Operation, Electronics Repair, Erotic Art, Falconry, Farming, Fast-Talk, Filch, Fist Aid, Forensics, Forgery, Fortune-Telling, Forward Observer, Gardening, Gesture, Group Performance, Herb Lore, Hidden Lore, Hiking, Housekeeping, Intelligence Analysis, Interrogation, Intimidation, Invisibility Art, Jeweler, Knot-Tying, Leadership, Lip Reading, Lockpicking, Market Analysis, Merchant, Mimicry, Mount, Naturalist, Navigation, Panhandling, Photography, Physician, Pickpocket, Piloting, Politics, Pressure Points, Pressure Secrets, Propaganda, Prospecting, Psychology, Public Speaking, Research, Riding, Running, Savoir-Faire, Seamanship, Shadowing, Shiphandling, Skating, Skiing, Sleight of Hand, Speed-Reading, Stealth, Strategy, Streetwise, Submarine, Submariner, Surgery, Tactics, Teaching, Teamster, Throwing, Throwing Art, Traps, Veterinary, Weather Sense, Zen Archery.

That is most skills, but it costing as much as IQ and DX I think keeps it fairly balanced. It's great for detective and investigator types.
DX still has a lot of value for combat types, IQ less so but there are still many pure IQ skills, especially spells and most Will based ones.
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 11:33 PM   #88
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

So I've spotted a problem with the proposed stat listing Kromm posted a few pages back, adding a magic points stat means that non-casters can't use magic wands and the like, which a bit of a no-go for me.

Personally I've worked out the stat set I'd use/like to use for a DF game: Physical (ST, DEX, GRACE, and HT); Mental (IQ, WILL, PER, and WIS), now I'd like to get the spendable stats (associated resource) up to 4, at present I have HP, FP and a new Endurance Points.

Now, anyone got any good suggestions for image editing software to draw up new character sheets?

Notes:
Grace represents balance and full body co-ordination, but also stylistic ability and sees more use in sport skills. Endurance Points are like a mental version of FP, they start out at WILL and are used in mentally taxing situations, most immortally when casting spells or using psi powers.
scc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2019, 12:04 AM   #89
RyanW
 
RyanW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

With this, we should be able to finally make a faithful GURPS TWERPS adaptation, right?
__________________
RyanW
- Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats.
RyanW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2019, 03:15 AM   #90
dataweaver
 
dataweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes

Revising my earlier suggestion, to make it appear simpler and to bring it a bit more in line with its inspirations (namely, GURPS and In Nomine):

Body: Fitness and Precision; Speed and Agility
Mind: Focus and Reason; Perception and Insight
Soul: Will and Intuition; Presence and Empathy

Each of these fifteen attributes is independent of the others.

Picture this in a manner similar to the In Nomine character sheet, with a three-by-two grid of circles: the top row contains a circle for each of Body, Mind, and Soul, with a rating at the top that tells you how strong you are in that realm and a rating at the bottom that tells you how many Hits you have in that realm. Inside the circle, you have two numbers, one for a health attribute (fitness, focus, and will, respectively) and one for a control attribute (precision, reason, and intuition, respectively). Just outside the circle, next to the health attribute, you have an energy pool based on it.

On the second row, you have three more circles, each representing a separate notion that more or less correlates with the one above it: Speed is next to Body, Perception is next to Mind, and Presence is next to Soul. This is structured in a similar way as the circles in the first row, but with fewer elements: on top of the circle is a number representing how strong your Speed, Perception, or Presence is; and inside the circle is a single attribute (Agility, Insight, and Empathy, respectively) representing how good you are at using that strength. Nothing analogous to the health attributes, Hits, or energy pools.

As for the Hits and energy pools from the first row:

• Body Hits measure injury; they're basically HPs.
• Mind Hits measure derangement.
• Soul Hits measure corruption.

• Using Fitness Points (Endurance?) causes fatigue; they're mostly FPs, along the lines of Long-Term Fatigue from The Last Gasp (Pyramid 3/44).
• Using Focus Points (Attention?) causes distraction; they're used for an alternate interpretation of Short-Term Fatigue from The Last Gasp (Pyramid 3/44)— they're your Action Points.
• Using Will Points (Willpower?) causes stress; they act as the Stability Points in Mad as Bones (Pyramid 3/103), except that the Long-Term Stability Points are replaced by Mind Hits.

Translating to GURPS names: Body is ST, Precision is DX, Fitness is HT, Speed is Basic Move, and Agility is Basic Speed. IQ is split up between Reason, Intuition, and Empathy; Perception is split between Perception and Insight; and Will is split between Focus and Will.

Skills are mostly divided between six Attributes: Precision, Agility, Reason, Insight, Intuition, and Empathy. There are a few that use Fitness, Focus, or Will as their controlling attribute; but those are exceptions. The six strengths (Body, Mind, Soul, Speed, Perception, and Presence) are almost never used as the basis for skills; only to enhance how effective the skills are when they succeed. The biggest exception to this is Perception, though a handful of skills are Presence-based.
__________________
Point balance is a myth.[1][2][3][4]
dataweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
power-ups 9

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.