IT:DR pricing

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by naloth

That's something you really can't do vs dodge.

Sure you can. Either by totally bypassing dodge (area attack, undodgeable attack) or by applying a large enough penalty that they just can't dodge (high skill and deceptive attack).

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

In high tech situations, like your MG examples, people use autofire and it means the difference between being hit six times and only being hit three times.

If you have a base speed of 6, making it 12, you can AoD for a 14. With a roll of 10 (avg), you'll take 2 hits.

If you have a base speed of 6 and IT:DR/5, you can AoD for a 11. With a 10 (avg), you'll take 5 hits. At half damage, you're still taking half again the damage the dodger took.

Edit: fixed broken math ;)

Penalizing defenses will affect those with a mediocre defense worse as it pushes them to worse areas on the bellcurve.

Sure you can. Either by totally bypassing dodge (area attack, undodgeable attack) or by applying a large enough penalty that they just can't dodge (high skill and deceptive attack).

While both are true, it's at least as easy to pick weapons that will work on the guy that bought a level or two of IT:DR as it is the dodge guy. Those still work just as well even if your surprise or area doesn't. Basically any suggestion that works on dodge guy also tends to work on IT:DR guy, plus more things that only work on IT:DR guy.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by naloth

3 levels of enhanced dodge is less than the lowest level of IT:DR. Even with a baseline human (speed 5, dodge 8, kinda of a "worse case scenario") that takes him from 25% dodge to over 50%. More likely it will take a move 6 PC from 9 -> 12, which under half to a 75% chance of success. You can further bolster that with AoD or Feverish (for 1 fatigue) if you're worried about a given attack, taking it to about a 90% chance of success. Each of those completely avoids the attack regardless if it's a paperclip being throw at you or a laser that will cut you in half.

Right up until someone hits you with half a dozen shots from a laser rifle. Now your Dodge needs to succeed by 5+ to avoid them all. And if they do that and you didn't know they were attacking? Ooops, no Dodge for you.

With IT:DR/2, you always take at least half. Since you round up, you'll often take just over half. You don't have an easy or built-in way to augment it.

Half the damage that hits you - you still get that base Dodge, etc.

As with many things, it depends on point budget, and some of one and some of another is probably better than tons of one. It also depends on what caps the GM has put on various things for their campaign.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Right up until someone hits you with half a dozen shots from a laser rifle. Now your Dodge needs to succeed by 5+ to avoid them all. And if they do that and you didn't know they were attacking? Ooops, no Dodge for you.
Half the damage that hits you - you still get that base Dodge, etc.

Why don't you put some numbers behind that? Enough damage to kill 2 people will still kill 1 with IT:DR. Where IT:DR shouldn't have mattered against a proper ambush getting a chance to dodge in a fight might have meant a trip to the hospital later instead of the morgue instantly.

As with many things, it depends on point budget, and some of one and some of another is probably better than tons of one. It also depends on what caps the GM has put on various things for their campaign.

Sure, but we're talking in situations where you would be able to buy the best of IT:DR, Enhanced Defenses, or extra HP freely.

Edit: I understand the point about ambushes, but the point of an ambush isn't to wound them a little when they don't see it coming. You try to overwhelm them, and taking half of too much damage to survive is still too much damage. It seems like the case where you are fighting is a better test to see which ability you would want.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by naloth

While both are true, it's at least as easy to pick weapons that will work on the guy that bought a level or two of IT:DR as it is the dodge guy. Those still work just as well even if your surprise or area doesn't. Basically any suggestion that works on dodge guy also tends to work on IT:DR guy, plus more things that only work on IT:DR guy.

Area attacks work on the guy with IT(DR), sure, but they don't work any better than they work on anyone else.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by naloth

HP is cheaper (up until you hit about /50), can also be massless (0%)

Do you recall if there was a specific term for this form of HP? I can't remember where I saw this, I think somewhere in Powers or Supers?

How similar is that to Vitality Reserve?

Originally Posted by naloth

doesn't suffer from the "round up" issue (i.e. every point of HP will take a point of damage while /10 takes the same if the fraction is only 1 point as if it was 10 points).

1 DR w/ Absorption is an easy fix for that, would immediately heal the damage. Or however fast it takes to spend the points.

Originally Posted by naloth

On the pro side, IT:DR is very easy to note and often IMO easier than a split HP score. HP is also generally limited to be within 30% of ST.

Only for mundane characters, if you have any kind of IT you've already left normality behind ;)

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by naloth

You try to overwhelm them, and taking half of too much damage to survive is still too much damage.

If you're jumping straight up to "always have overwhelming force", then your going to have undodgeable, unsurvivable amounts of damage.

Neither IT:DR no Enhanced Dodge are of any utility.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

If you're jumping straight up to "always have overwhelming force", then your going to have undodgeable, unsurvivable amounts of damage.

It's less of a jump and more of a realization that about the same amount of the time you'll have ambushes that deal in both rather than one or the other. Why go to the point of engineering the situation to eliminate dodge if you don't take advantage of it?

Furthermore, it was specifically half or 1/3 damage I was discussing. It wasn't a brick that could take a .50 to the face and laugh it off.

Neither IT:DR no Enhanced Dodge are of any utility.

That's true for certain situations, and many of them overlap. IT:DR/2 isn't going to matter to the sniper that decides to blow your head off, but he will want to make sure you don't dodge.

There were a lot of suggestions that rapid fire favored IT:DR over +Dodge of equal value. I'm not sure that's the case, based on a few quick numbers I tried out.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Plane

Do you recall if there was a specific term for this form of HP? I can't remember where I saw this, I think somewhere in Powers or Supers?

I believe it's first presented on Supers p25, but it isn't exactly named there.

How similar is that to Vitality Reserve?

I've seen that on the boards as an analogue to Energy Reserve, but I'm not sure where it's appeared in publication.

1 DR w/ Absorption is an easy fix for that, would immediately heal the damage. Or however fast it takes to spend the points.

Yes, it would need to be a bit higher. You'd need a pool of at least 2 to heal 1 HP and a big enough divisor such that you can build up the 2 to heal before taking 2 damage.

Only for mundane characters, if you have any kind of IT you've already left normality behind ;)

I originally had this thought that bricks that ~human levels (for knockback purposes, so they fly around after being hit with high damage ST but only take damage in proportion to their HP) might do better with the alternative of buying IT:DR and Fixed ST under KYOS. Aside from the above, the other benefit is that if they lose the "Fixed ST" you don't have to figure out what proportion of damage they now have against the current HP.

Example: if a proposed Superman has IT:DR/5 as part of being a kryptonian and a ST 10 (depowered) + 50 (fixed ST), for a KYOS total of 60, you always take all the damage against his HP 10. You don't have to worry about the "I took 5 damage, taking HP 60 to HP 55, then got expose do magic/kryptonite that nullified my powers making me ST10. What's my HP now?"

It simplifies record keeping in much the same way that "I take half damage from fire attacks" is easier to apply than creating a separate "only vs fire" HP pool. After all, if you have HP 12 and +HP12 only fire, when you take 20 damage, are you negative? How 40, where half is fire - do you take life checks? It's needlessly complicated.

I see all of that as an issue. It's different from DR scaling which IT:DR does address for the default damage values at higher values, but possibly more common for some types of builds anyway. It goes back to the question if IT:DR/2 /3 /4 /5 are reasonably priced for the benefit they offer.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by naloth

I've seen {Vitality Reserve} on the boards as an analogue to Energy Reserve, but I'm not sure where it's appeared in publication.

Originally in this Krommpost. The term doesn't appear in any of the PDFs I happen to have. (DF would seem as likely as any; probably Pyramid if it got published at all.)