Going clubbin...

[JimmyPlenty]

On Facebook, Alvin asked about clubs and why they went up in damage the higher you go in ST and other weapons did not. I am answering here because this might get lenghty (and it will be archived better)

Feel free to tackle/rebuke/test this idea...

I don't think the club wasn't really meant for PC's. I think they were made for those 20+ ST humanoid monsters (ogre, giants, cyclops) as a guide for damage rather than just giving them all battleaxes with a straight 3d damage. I believe the intention was meant to be a nerf for those monsters, but somehow, ended up in the PC section.

Because of this, instead of completely changing the damage system, I suggest eliminating the weapon (as it is written) altogether (except for those biggies).

So what of the club then for PC's? Treat them all as an inferior weapon for the same strength. (since everyone can swing a club without need of a skill) and cause -2 damage as a weapon for the equivalent ST.

Of course, this doesn;t change the idea of more ST = more damage in general, but that is for another thread.

[hcobb]

At ST 9 a club does as much damage as a rapier and throws better than a javelin because ITL untalented bare handed damage is a point higher than in Melee/Wizard.

[Skarg]

I don't think there should be a difference in mechanics between PCs and NPCs except perhaps in detail level in some cases.

I agree that the idea is that clubs are supposed to be worse than actual weapons. Your suggestion (use weapon damage -2) would work to fix that.

The main problem is the listed damages don't always work out that way for all ST values, so clubs end up being as good as weapons, or better, and they require no talent to use, and the table says they can be thrown too. At very high ST, they end up being the most damaging melee weapons. (Damages separated by a slash are: one-handed / two-handed.)

The problem extends also to everything that uses the "Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club" table.

This was discussed in an earlier thread.

My solution to all of the above, is to:
* reduce the base damage for low ST.
* give +1 damage for every 2 ST over a weapon's requirement
* at very high ST, convert some high constant damage to dice, at a rate that slightly favors using two hands over using one hand

This table shows both the problems and the results. The left section shows yellow places where club damage equals weapon damage, and red where club damage is better than weapon damage in RAW. The green "two-handed tweak" section is the resulting damages after my adjustments.

There are some other club issues, too - probably there should be specific clubs with minimum ST, weight, damage, and probably often a to-hit penalty unless they've been made by an armorer.

[Terquem]

I said something like this in the Facebook thread

Isn't a quarter staff really no more than a two handed club?

Also, I feel a quarter staff wielded in two hands should count as armor, deflecting 1 hit. or at least there should be a talent for quarter staff defense

Now, the buck and a quarter quarter staff should obviously be better in the hands of a duck, but that's just me.

[hcobb]

Reducing club damage by a point means the Quarterstaff talent actually does something and isn't just a wasted memory point.

[TippetsTX]

So I have tried to solve this dilemma by making the following changes in my game:

1. Replace 'club' w/ 'improvised weapon' - the term 'club' is too broad since it covers numerous weapons that should require training to use effectively in combat (i.e. saps, batons, escrima fighting sticks, etc.).
2. Create a new weapon talent for CLUB/STAFF - this will allow characters to pursue specialization in these weapons.
3. Change barehanded HTH damage from d6 to d3 base - IMO, unless you are dealing w/ massive fists, claws or trained martial artists, unarmed damage should never threaten to exceed weapon-based damage.
4. Untrained barehanded damage is non-lethal - I have changed the definition of 'non-lethal' to mean the equivalent of 'fatigue' damage, not half-damage.
5. Daggers will use their default melee damage in HTH - no modifications for ST.
6. Using cestus will change non-lethal HTH damage to lethal - no bonus to the base damage.
7. Improvised weapons will deal bonus damage based on size - the typical range will be +1 to +3 added to the base HTH damage.

[larsdangly]

The only house rule I use in this general subject area is the +1 dam per 2 full points of extra ST, up to a max of double base damage, for most melee and thrown weapons (not including stuff like whips, sha ken, nets, etc.).

[JimmyPlenty]

Actually, after more research I think I am cool with the RAW. The club is already inferior to damage when compared it to its ST bladed weapon counterparts until ST 50. Since anyone with ST over 30 (and this is being generous) is a monster, damage becomes arbitrary really and weapons just for show and style.

The original question is why does a hammer stay at 1d+1 when a club can go up considerably higher?

I think I forgot that the simple answer is that the player should be upgrading thier martial weapon to something else if their ST goes up, not stick with a hammer. All martial weapons are much deadlier than the club counterparts.

Now what is still a problem, is the idea of not requiring a skill for a club. This makes some weapons a little weak and even obsoloete. Daggers are ok, because you could argue that clubs cannot be used in HTH but daggers can. So worth it to spend the skill to get a dagger.

A hatchet, at ST 9, can be thrown, and had 1d damage just like the club. It's just lighter. So the club RAW makes the hatchet obsolete since the hatchet needs a skill point to use.

The big loser here comes the rapier. At ST 9, as HCOBB said, can't be thrown like the hatchet can. So it too is obsolete.

My new answer:

Simply make clubs require the axe/mace skill to use. (it is in their category in the weapon chart after all and mentioned in the axe/mace skill)

The RAW says everyone can swing a club. Well, they say that about sword in the above paragraph too. I would say there is a large difference between anyone swinging a bat and someone skilled with swinging a bat.

Now hatchets and rapiers are more on even ground. Hatchets are tied up but being lighter actually gives them the small edge. Rapiers are still inferior at first only because they cannot be thrown. However, if your character ever wants the Fencer talents, that would be the reason to accept the initial slight.

So what about the idea that "anyone can use a club"? The idea is to give unskilled people a fighting chance. Well, how about with a club, or improvised club, there is a penalty, but not as severe as a -4. In general, I'd say -2 for a proper balanced club.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The only house rule I use in this general subject area is the +1 dam per 2 full points of extra ST, up to a max of double base damage, for most melee and thrown weapons (not including stuff like whips, sha ken, nets, etc.).

My rule is similar... +1 damage for every 3 points over the minimum required ST or +2 damage if the weapon is two-handed.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

The big loser here comes the rapier. At ST 9, as HCOBB said, can't be thrown like the hatchet can. So it too is obsolete.

My 'fix' for rapiers... allow a 2nd strike (similar to the extra arrow granted to the bowman) if the character's adjDX is 14 or higher.