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Old 08-10-2015, 10:51 PM   #1
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default [Basic] So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Problem

OK, some people may have noticed that I'm doing some stuff with AF recently. Well one of the problems I may have to deal with is that of some picking up two Alternate Forms, like described in the title.

The obvious thing is that they either remain separate, you pay the base AF cost twice and 90% of the cost of the most expensive form or they join and you pay the AF cost once and 90% of the combined form.

But is there anything I'm missing?
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Old 08-10-2015, 11:00 PM   #2
Peaches
 
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Default Re: [Basic]So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Probl

I'm pretty sure you pay the normal cost for Alternate Form for the most expensive transformation, then pay 15 for each form that costs less points. That's what it says in Basic anyways.
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Old 08-10-2015, 11:09 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Basic]So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Probl

There is a case where you would want to take AF twice, rather than just take two forms. The base cost of AF is 15 points, but you can apply enhancements and limitations to that. If you want to apply different ones, I'd say you have to take it twice; and particularly if you want to have different power modifiers, say
Super for the Hulk and Magic for the werewolf.

On the other hand, you presumably can't use both at the same time! So you can take the one with lower total cost as an Alternative Ability, at one-fifth of normal cost.

So say the Hulk form costs 1,000 points, and its AF has -40% modifiers; and the werewolf form costs 250 points, and its AF has -20% modifiers. The Hulk AF by itself costs 15 x 60% + 1,000 x 90% = 909 points. The werewolf AF by itself costs 15 x 80% + 250 x 90% = 237 points. But if you take both, you divide the lower cost by 5, to get 48 points, for a total cost of 957 points.
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Old 08-10-2015, 11:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Basic]So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Probl

You pay the normal price for the most expensive, and each additional form is a separate line that costs [15], +/- modifiers. You can NOT claim AF as an Alternate Ability to another AF.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:03 AM   #5
scc
 
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Default Re: [Basic]So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Probl

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
There is a case where you would want to take AF twice, rather than just take two forms. The base cost of AF is 15 points, but you can apply enhancements and limitations to that. If you want to apply different ones, I'd say you have to take it twice; and particularly if you want to have different power modifiers, say
Super for the Hulk and Magic for the werewolf.

On the other hand, you presumably can't use both at the same time! So you can take the one with lower total cost as an Alternative Ability, at one-fifth of normal cost.

So say the Hulk form costs 1,000 points, and its AF has -40% modifiers; and the werewolf form costs 250 points, and its AF has -20% modifiers. The Hulk AF by itself costs 15 x 60% + 1,000 x 90% = 909 points. The werewolf AF by itself costs 15 x 80% + 250 x 90% = 237 points. But if you take both, you divide the lower cost by 5, to get 48 points, for a total cost of 957 points.
Um, whswhs (Bill, right?) B83-84 is VERY clear on this matter, you pay the full cost for the first/most expensive AF (15 + .9 Template cost) and a flat 15 per other form. And there a Kromm post somewhere about how you can't apply Limitations to to the form cost EVER, only to the transformation cost (The 15 points)
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Old 08-11-2015, 04:24 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Basic]So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Probl

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
Um, whswhs (Bill, right?) B83-84 is VERY clear on this matter, you pay the full cost for the first/most expensive AF (15 + .9 Template cost) and a flat 15 per other form. And there a Kromm post somewhere about how you can't apply Limitations to to the form cost EVER, only to the transformation cost (The 15 points)
Powers includes the option to buy multiple copies of normally single level abilities, if they have a different power source (like Super versus Magic in the above example). It's on p.12, in the sidebar "Uniqueness".
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Old 08-11-2015, 06:48 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Basic]So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Probl

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
Um, whswhs (Bill, right?) B83-84 is VERY clear on this matter, you pay the full cost for the first/most expensive AF (15 + .9 Template cost) and a flat 15 per other form. And there a Kromm post somewhere about how you can't apply Limitations to to the form cost EVER, only to the transformation cost (The 15 points)
(a) I was explicitly describing a case that has unusual aspects, where you might want to make an exception to that rule.

(b) The calculation I provided does in fact apply limitations only to the transformation costs. Go back and work through it and you should see that.
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Old 08-11-2015, 08:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Basic] So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Prob

I have a feeling that Kromm was once quoted as suggesting that if he were to redo Alternate Forms in some mythical future version, that he would consider using the Alternate Abilities mechanism.

Which at least gives some support to their use being a not unreasonable approach (assuming I'm remembering that correctly - I did do a quick search and couldn't find any such reference on the forums.)
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Old 08-11-2015, 09:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Basic] So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Prob

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
I have a feeling that Kromm was once quoted as suggesting that if he were to redo Alternate Forms in some mythical future version, that he would consider using the Alternate Abilities mechanism.

Which at least gives some support to their use being a not unreasonable approach (assuming I'm remembering that correctly - I did do a quick search and couldn't find any such reference on the forums.)
It has been, and by Kromm. I'm still looking for that particular quote, but while we're waiting here's one from Rev. on how to do it and why using AA on the "vanilla" alternate form pricing system is a dirty dirty point crock.

EDIT: Wonk, here it is, word of Kromm.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Basic] So The Hulk Gets Bitten By a Werewolf Or The Multiple Alternate Form Prob

The key question is whether the Hulk turns into a normal werewolf, or if he turns into a big green gamma-powered werewolf.

In the case of a normal werewolf, that's just a standard use of alternate form. If he turns into a big green gamma-powered werewolf, that means at least one of his abilities isn't alternate form, because racial templates don't stack.
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