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05-18-2016, 01:13 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
Okay, so we've been playing, and things have been great, but we've noticed a few... irregularities. This post covers four major questions I've got.
1. Hitboxes So we're considering moving from narratively-determined hitboxes to rolled/called hitboxes, because we want to make combat more lethal, and we've decided that we need hit locations to implement wounds, crippling damage, etc. However, we've realized something strange: A trained swordsman would definitely keep as much of his body away from the enemy as possible, but nevertheless the enemy can still call a shot against his back left foot, and as far as I know there is no avenue for the swordsman to "improve" his dodge; his front left hand is at much risk as back left foot. I am aware of the fencing weapon parry being +3, easier to ready, etc. But this means that, as far as I can tell, a trained gladiator swordsman can't improve his chances of dodging with stance or skill, except by getting combat reflexes. 2. Impaling Weapons We have a spear-wielder, and he is a killing machine. We don't use combat distance very strictly, but we do have a rule that if someone is too close he has to shove, hit with the butt of the spear, retreat, etc. Is there some kind of bonus to parrying spears, avoiding them, or something else? Because he has impaling damage, any successful attacks he makes automatically do really severe damage, and usually the enemies are stuck on his spear and as such are further incapacitated. Is that pretty normal? Or is combat distance the ceiling on impaling weapons? Some guidance here would be nice. Additionally, he has SL14 with spear, which honestly I feel is preposterous because he's a merchant and not a gladiator, but that's his own character. This means he almost never fails his attacks, and as a result pretty much just mows down foes. Some guidance/comments would be appreciated. 3. Rigid armor I have a judgment call to ask about for rigid armor. The blunt trauma mechanic only applies to flexible armor, and only if all the damage is absorbed. Because almost all other weapons are cutting/impaling, this puts crushing weapons at a pretty clear disadvantage. Historically, maces/warhammers were used explicitly to deal with plate armor, but GURPS doesn't seem to reconcile this. My friend suggests that maces are designed to deal with higher DR, rigid armor with their straight bonus damage. However, a steel breastplate is DR 5. Which means that my guy, with a weapon explicitly designed to counter rigid armor, with his 1d+3 damage, can only do a maximum of 4 damage to a knight's chest. This just seems incongruous to me, considering that in all-knight situations, typical weaponry was pretty much entirely maces or warpicks. 4. Hit chances We have a lot of narrative explaining away of missed strikes as "he manages to curl himself away from you, and the sword narrowly passes in front of his chest." This seems a little strange considering we're all warriors. Is this the result of no one taking "evaluate" maneuvers? Or is this the difference between SL10, SL11, and SL12, as I see 12 describing professional skill level? |
05-18-2016, 01:41 AM | #2 | |||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
OK quick reply will try and expand later (when I get to work) EDIT: OK I've added a bit more.
One thing some of the stuff I mention below is in supplements namely Martial Arts and Martial Arts: Gladiators. I recommend both but especially the former if you're going to get into more detailed h-t-h combat with lots of clever tactics etc. Quote:
There are rules in Martial Arts: Gladiators for angled stances that presents one side and denies the other. And also for focussed defence which focuses your defence against one side at the expense of the other. Improving dodge is matter of either doing so directly by improving the underlying stats or taking enhanced defence: dodge, or taking manoeuvres that allow to you to dodge better (Defensive attack, or All our Defence, retreat etc) Also not sure what you mean by "fencing parry being +3 easier"? Its better in combination with retreat than others, and it get less penalties for multiple parries in a turn (it comes with some down sides as well though) Quote:
Spears are good, cheap and effective weapons. But you might want to enforce the reach rules especially the rule for swapping between reach ranges (depending on what spear they are using). Get into Close combat range will hurt him as well. But also armour, every point of DR will stop 2 points of Imp injury. What kind of ST's are we talking about here, that can make a significant difference (especially with RAW) Quote:
What are you giving his opponents in terms of defences? Assuming no other factors someone with a skill of 12 and a medium (2DB) shield should be parrying him at Parry 11 or 63% of the time. Shields are great, also those tactics for helping increase dodge above will help his opponents to stay alive as well. Quote:
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However in general you do have an issue that by RAW ST based hand held weapons will quickly start giving unrealistic effects against armour as ST increases. This issue and how to tackle it is regular topic here, you will be able to find threads pretty easily. Quote:
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But you also have defences succeeding. Take that Skill 14 merchant you mentioned earlier. Yes he'll be on target 91% of the time, but he'll also succeed on his normal parry with just that skill 50% of the time. So your descriptions will change accordingly. Anyway cheers and let me know if all that makes sense and/or you have more questions TD Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-19-2016 at 03:42 AM. |
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05-18-2016, 04:31 AM | #3 | ||||
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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Speaking of active defenses, we realized that one of our PCs took a cloak because he thought it was cool, and it has been giving him +1DB this whole time and we didn't realize. Because that +1DB is quite impactful we're using damage to shields. What are some typical rules for when that's targeted? It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to say that a successful parry or block by the DB of the cloak means that I parried with the cloak. A dodge would, however. Also, do you prioritize hitting the cloak first, then the shield? |
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05-18-2016, 05:06 AM | #4 | ||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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OK quick set up: ST10 3lb Broadsword (1d+1 cut) and ST10 3lb small Mace (1d+2 cr) Both vs. DR5 mail The sword on average does 4.5 and won't beat the mail The mace on average does 5.5 but the mail is only DR3 vs. Cr so will actually do damage on average. Now as I said this get's into a big topic about hand held ST derived damage vs. DR, but I'm trying to stick to basic RAW for the moment! Just quickly blunt trauma is almost a red herring at this level as it's unlikely to apply. You have to do at least 5 points of Cr damage against flexible DR that will stop all that Cr damage (or 10 for Cut/Imp attacks which is even less likely). Quote:
The stance rules in MA:G add a bit of detail in that turning side on and having your weapon in your trailing hand can effect that weapons reach so you might end up negatively effecting your ability to fight. The reality is for more low level fights having an arm crippled is pretty much going to be the end of a fight. Or certainly the beginning of the end Quote:
The corollary is the GURPS combat system also gives various ways to fight defensively. Should you ever want to draw your combats out give your mooks big DB3 shields, and the shield wall training perk. Quote:
But you seem to be talking about using a cloak and shield at the same time (which I guess you could do one in either hand, I'd allow the defender to chose which took the potential damage in the case it came up)? Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-18-2016 at 09:55 AM. |
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05-19-2016, 03:28 PM | #5 | ||||||
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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We won't need it since we're TL2 (and I don't think we're going to encounter lorica segmentata-type armor, either, but what are the recommended rules for making combat against soldiers wearing this armor doable? I suppose integrate the "chinks in the armor" rules, right? What else could be done? Quote:
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And as for the former, that's how I've been dealing with it so far. It sometimes feels muddy and "hacked together" when we do it that way, like we're missing an aspect of how it would really turn out. This thread has so far made it clear that I need to read the whole of low-tech, at least! |
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05-19-2016, 04:32 PM | #6 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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At the end of this rules change, the skills Staff and Spear and Lance would probably be replaced with a single skill, just like Broadsword, Rapier, and Smallsword would become one. But my GURPS books are back in the Old Country. Some aspects of the GURPS combat mechanics date back to the 1980s when less was known and there was no community of experts in different subjects to help the authors do research or write the books themselves.
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 05-19-2016 at 04:36 PM. |
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05-19-2016, 04:40 PM | #7 | |||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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The simplest bypass for heavy armor is hitting where it isn't. On most armor that doesn't mean aiming for small gaps, it means aiming for entire hit locations that have no armor protection. Face, neck, abdomen if you're using the Low Tech version of the hit locations, and limbs all offer chances to make somebody's solid torso protection do nothing, for less penalty than targetting chinks and still dealing with half DR. For really comprehensive suits you may need the smaller (and often still partially protected) armor gaps detailed in Low Tech. Frankly, dealing with that may be beyond your PCs' capabilities during anything like a fair fight. If they find themselves really needing to do it anyway, manufacturing an unfair shot by knocking the knight down, disarming them, and maybe grappling them before lining up for the kill may be best. (At the point where somebody is down and having a dagger insinuated into their throat or armpit, they're fairly likely to try to surrender rather than play out the final gruesome steps. And people with that kind of armor usually can pay ransoms.) Quote:
In most contexts I would not expect the benefits to be worth effectively disarming a PC. Quote:
Presenting one side or the other using the rules in Martial Arts: Gladiators doesn't require that. Once you actually look at the mechanical effects, your player's feeling that they'd have to be an idiot not to use it may be shaken, though... (In particular, if you're presenting your weapon hand you're making it more likely you'll get that crippled and lose your weapon, which is bad. If you're presenting your off hand you're making it harder to parry, and maybe also reach targets, with your main hand.) A pretty good idea. You might also want to read large portions of Martial Arts, if you haven't.
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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05-19-2016, 08:26 PM | #8 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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About the other thing note that with a 6 HP wound the guy is not only "com0on sense stunned" a 10 HP average guy is subject to the Knockdown and Stun rules (Campaigns p.420). Fail the HT roll and that dropping your weapon and falling down is a fight-ender in most LT melee situations. Or Mr Armor Guy could fall down because you Crippled his Foot. That's the time to do an all Out Attack (Strong) and get +2 damage which is another way to penetrate that armor. Before you invest a lot of time in reading LT and Martial Arts go through the Basic stuff about Hit Locations and damage and combat options in Campaigns first. There's a lot there.
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Fred Brackin |
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05-20-2016, 03:48 AM | #9 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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*which are an odd mix of the historically good and historically ...less good! |
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05-20-2016, 08:41 AM | #10 | |||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances
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A final note on why spears are awesome, if I may - a spear has a base cost of $40, while a Thrusting Broadsword has a base cost of $600. You can get a Fine, Balanced Spear for $560, for +1 to damage and to hit. At ST 10, your spear has a higher chance to hit and its thrust damage exceeds that of the sword and equals the sword's swing damage, and it still costs a bit less than the sword does. And you have the option of grabbing it in two hands for a further +1 damage and better Reach. As ST goes up, this isn't quite as good (swing damage increases faster than thrust), but it's still able to compete with the sword. |
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Tags |
armor, combat distance, impaling, question, rules |
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